C2ctc

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 07:54 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 07:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 11:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 11:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed 7633m, yesterday. My 2K the day before was 6:59.0 (1:44.8). <br />70% of 1:44.8 for 30' is very close to 7633m. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Could you describe your feelings regarding both of those efforts?<br />Equally fatigued at the end?<br />Percieved Effort?<br />etc...<br /><br />Generally in the final 100m of a 2k "Maximal Effort" it becomes evident that current pace is going to drop below Avg Pace if even an extra stroke or two is required. Do people opperate close to that same edge for 30 minutes? They seem to be very different exercises IMO. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There's some details of warm-up, cool down and the splits, stroke rate and HR in my weblog. I don't do the percieved effort stuff to a great deal, but at the end of the 2K it felt much worse than the 2K warm-up, 30'R20, 2K cool down. The bike ride home was harder, more lactic after the 20' warm-up, 2K, 5K cool down. <br /><br />The spi was 10.7 for the 30' but only 8.7 for the 2K. <br /><br />Both times I've done this calculation on 2K vs 30'R20 (rowed close together) the maths has come out right. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Let's try it this way then.<br /><br />You have just finished the 2k, you are approached and offered something of great value to you, could you repeat the performance, to begin in the next 10 minutes?<br /><br />How about the 30'R20 piece?<br /><br />Your note of the SPI difference is something that Ranger should pay attention to. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I know I couldn't do another 2K straight after. The 5K cool down was hard after it.<br /><br />I don't know about the 30'R20 pace was starting to head out towards 2:00 for the last 6min split. I'm not sure 10mins would be enough recovery to bring it back. An interesting proposition - 2 * 30'R20 intervals 10:00r. <i>I may try that.</i>

[[old] Stretch]

Personally, I feel like the <i>duration</i> of the suffering over a maximal 30 minute piece, capped or not, doesn't quite outweigh the <i>intensity</i> of the suffering during a balls-out 2K. On the other hand, the highest I have ever seen my heart rate was during the last few minutes of my 30@20 PB, so <i>something</i> evil is definitely going on there.

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 4 2006, 03:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 4 2006, 03:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mark--<br /><br />I saw on the Wolverine thread that your back is tightening up.<br /><br />My advice to you is avoid this 30'r20 workout if you've got any kind of back issues. <br /><br />And remember, allowing for adequate recovery is an essential part of training.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Tom:<br /><br />I'm reading your post after having done my first 30'@20SPM, which turned out to really be 30'@19SPM (rats!), as my second workout of the day. I took it easy, but this is still darn hard. Only 6,897M at a pace average of 2:10.4. I used the first 1K or so as the warmup, so this was certainly not an all out effort. <br /><br />I will agree Tom that this is taxing on one who has some issues with back muscles (tightening). To really push this workout, it's clear that you could really damage a few parts if not properly warmed up, as you said. The PT I went to told me the back muscle tightness or spasms are from too many years working on bench presses, etc., without the proper balance and volume of back work. Slowly but surely it's getting better, but it's taken time to build the back and "de-build" the front.<br /><br /> <br /><br />I do have a question about this workout. How do those that do it stay on track for 20SPM or lower? Is there a way (I'm missing) to see in realtime the current stroke average, or do you just keep trying to hit 20SPM on the monitor balancing slow strokes (18, 19) against fast strokes (21,22)?<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark

[[old] seat5]

I approach the 30 min 20 spm piece by aiming for my 30 min PB. Last year it was impossible. This year I surpassed it. Which of course means my 30 min PB is out of date.

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 4 2006, 06:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 4 2006, 06:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do have a question about this workout.  How do those that do it stay on track for 20SPM or lower?  Is there a way (I'm missing) to see in realtime the current stroke average, or do you just keep trying to hit 20SPM on the monitor balancing slow strokes (18, 19) against fast strokes (21,22)?<br />Thanks -- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Key-riced Mark! Just use the monitor clock. 20spm is every three seconds and 15 spm is every 4. Rates of 16, 17 and 19 would be tough - I used to use 17 a lot, but switched to 18 which is easier since it repeats every 10 seconds - zero, 7 on the screen briefly, 4 on the screen for a long count and hit it again at zero. That's for a time setting of course. I haven't used sub 20spm for distance settings. For 20, it is on the multiples of 3, the same as with a distance setting. 24 is a little trickier. For time, it is zero, 8 with a pause, right on the 5, 3 with a pause, and right on the next zero. For distance, it is zero, 2 with a pause, 5 right on, 7 with a pause, and right on the next zero. If you do go a little fast or slow for a stroke or two, sticking with the correct numbers for the seconds will even it up fairly well. I have a regimen for 22 spm as well, but it is obviously more complex and I have used it only for time settings (part of my warmups). Using 30 spm is as easy as 12, 15, and 20 of course. For any other rate over 24, I go by feel and an occasional check on the rate meter. A rate of 10spm is a tricky one. Every 6 seconds should be easy enough, but if you slip below 10, the meter goes wild. Of course, if you stick by the seconds of the clock it should enough up well enough, but it is unnerving to see the stroke rate registering strange numbers. I have never felt any need to go below 12 spm, so the problems with 10 spm are not an issue.<br /><br />There is a small problem with the erratic nature of the monitor clock - occasional jumps and lags, but I have gotten used to that and it hasn't interfered - except for the very first stroke which always seems to be a long count. I start my 10' daily wakeup erging at 12 spm and hitting that second stroke right on 9:55 invariably ends up with the rate meter showing 11. After that, hitting the zeros and 5s has the rate meter at a constant 12. <br /><br />Bob S. <br />

[[old] seat5]

I hate to bring up the dreaded word metrenome, but I use one for this workout, and the PM3 tells me I'm spot on 20 for every split. Most metrenomes won't go 20. Set it at 60 and if you can, set it to make a strong beat every 3 beats. Then drive on the strong beat. Recover on 2 and 3.

[[old] mpukita]

I'm OK using the PM3; just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would be readily apparent to someone with a higher IQ than me.<br /><br />

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 4 2006, 08:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 4 2006, 08:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm OK using the PM3; just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would be readily apparent to someone with a higher IQ than me.<br /><br />   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry, Mark. I guess I got a little carried away. It is just that every time I see something about someone having a problem with low rates I wonder why there should be any problem. Usually it is some kid (under 70?) who just can't take the time to do a long, slow, relaxed - but controlled recovery. The timing is another issue. It is best if the erger (or rower as well) can just go by instinct and not have to rely on an instrument (monitor, metronome, speed coach, or whatever). Most of my rowing was at bow or two seat (in an 8+) and I never really developed the fine tuning that is needed in a single sculler or the stroke of a sweep boat. I just went by the view of the back of the rower in the next seat aft, the blade action at 7 and 8, and the feel of the boat.<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Bob S.

[[old] Pete Marston]

PaulS,<br /><br />I don't think a restricted rate piece (where the restriction is as low as 20 anyway) can ever compare to the feeling of a free rate piece like a 2k. The lactic acid levels are much lower, and you've got one less variable (stroke rate) to worry about.<br /><br />If you do it as fast as you can, no way you could repeat it after 10mins though. I don't know what would be physically possible, but mentally I don't think I could even do it full out twice in the same day. Physically probably a couple of hours is enough rest though.<br /><br />If something very valuable depended on it, I'd use 614 strokes, rather than 600, the PM3 would still say the average stroke rate was 20, and I could repeat it though. <br /><br />Pete

[[old] hjs]

I want to make a commend on the 20 rate stuff. <br /><br />For a shorter person it is something completely different to stroke at rate 20 than for a taller person. <br />My advice for the not so tall rowers is not to rate 20 but stay at 22/24. Look at what pace you do on a 2 k compare it white that. <br /><br /><br />Another thing about the way a 30 min feels compared to a 2 k. For my personaly they are both very hard If done at max. If you feel a 30 min is not as though you just ain't trying hard enough <br />If you really go flat out, you have to lay down afterwards and certainly can't repeat the training.<br /><br />Bye the way. If you are so tired after a training that even the cooling down can't be done properly you are pushing to hard I think. Give your body a push, don't try to distroy it. Save that for a few times a year during a real race

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-rspenger+Jan 5 2006, 12:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rspenger @ Jan 5 2006, 12:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 4 2006, 08:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 4 2006, 08:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm OK using the PM3; just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would be readily apparent to someone with a higher IQ than me.<br /><br />   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry, Mark. I guess I got a little carried away. It is just that every time I see something about someone having a problem with low rates I wonder why there should be any problem. Usually it is some kid (under 70?) who just can't take the time to do a long, slow, relaxed - but controlled recovery. The timing is another issue. It is best if the erger (or rower as well) can just go by instinct and not have to rely on an instrument (monitor, metronome, speed coach, or whatever). Most of my rowing was at bow or two seat (in an 8+) and I never really developed the fine tuning that is needed in a single sculler or the stroke of a sweep boat. I just went by the view of the back of the rower in the next seat aft, the blade action at 7 and 8, and the feel of the boat.<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Bob S. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No worries Bob ... no worries ...

[[old] Spectre]

Perhaps slightlty off topic but.....in doing this low rate stuff do you folks find that you want to turn up the damper setting a bit? I have done one 30@20spm with the setting at 5. this is were I usually do all my workouts. I feel like I want more "bite" since I am taking twice as long to come back up the slide what do you think?

[[old] michaelb]

A couple of years ago when I was first trying to lower my SRs, I did the 30 min R20 row regularly. I "liked" it. But since then I have mostly focused on 10mps (or slightly longer for a awhile), which results in generally higher SRs, 23-25 more or less. We seem to go through popular trends on this forum, and the latest trends are really long rows at low SRs (the wolverine plan, etc) and now 30@20spm (always popular in the UK).<br /><br />My question about low SR rowing, for me below SR=22, at high power is that eventually it takes your stroke out of any sort of rhythm. How do you lower your SR at high power if you aren't increasing the time on the recovery? My recovery can seem to be only so slow, so to get low SRs I found I would just pause on the finish. <br /><br />Lately I have been focusing on the value of higher SRs strapless, trying to make my recovery stronger and quicker and stay in the ratio of 10mps.

[[old] Pete Marston]

<!--QuoteBegin-Spectre+Jan 5 2006, 09:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Spectre @ Jan 5 2006, 09:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps slightlty off topic but.....in doing this low rate stuff do you folks find that you want to turn up the damper setting a bit?  I have done one 30@20spm with the setting at 5. this is were I usually do all my workouts.  I feel like I want more "bite" since I am taking twice as long to come back up the slide what do you think? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If anything you want to lower the drag so that the flywheel will slow less on the extended recoveries. I leave it just the same (128-130).

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your note of the SPI difference is something that Ranger should pay attention to.  </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why? The 2 SPI spread between the 2K and the 30'r20 tests is entirely normal and is built into all of my training assumptions. <br /><br />Are you seeing some problem I am not aware of?<br /><br />ranger