What I believe, and what I plan to do

[hjs]

What I believe, and what I plan to do

1. I plan to row each ranking piece as hard as I can and post the time honestly, like always. I'm lucky enough to have the PM3, so I'll use the V code. If that isn't good enough for some folks, I don't give a darn. If people think everyone can assemble a lineup of willing dupes to do a relay for them on every ranking distance to get good times there will be no convincing them of the validity of the rankings no matter what one does.

2. I plan to believe all the times in the rankings, like always. If they are faster than mine, I'll try to beat them.

3. I plan to try to remember to say a row was ON SLIDES (most of mine are) if I post about it on the forum..of course, in the rankings, it's already there, if anyone cares to look.

Isn't that simple?

Yes indeed it is simply. And in an ideal world it would work to. But we all now that we don,t live in an ideal world.

[EricR]

All good intentions, but it won't keep the fakers away. Unless something is done about the bogus times by Concept2 themselves we will have to deal with those times for a long time.

[Dickie]

What I believe, and what I plan to do

1. I plan to row each ranking piece as hard as I can and post the time honestly, like always. I'm lucky enough to have the PM3, so I'll use the V code. If that isn't good enough for some folks, I don't give a darn. If people think everyone can assemble a lineup of willing dupes to do a relay for them on every ranking distance to get good times there will be no convincing them of the validity of the rankings no matter what one does.

2. I plan to believe all the times in the rankings, like always. If they are faster than mine, I'll try to beat them.

3. I plan to try to remember to say a row was ON SLIDES (most of mine are) if I post about it on the forum..of course, in the rankings, it's already there, if anyone cares to look.

Isn't that simple?

You hit the nail on the head, Carla. There is no way to verify all the postings on the rankings, it is just too diverse. The PM3 can be scammed, videos can be edited on the computer, there is a conspiracy theorist for every solution. For those that are adamant about the rankings being cheat-free, you can always limit the views to race results (so far, the only acceptable way to eliminate cheating).

Fred Dickie

[seat5]

All good intentions, but it won't keep the fakers away. Unless something is done about the bogus times by Concept2 themselves we will have to deal with those times for a long time.

No, it won't. I didn't say it would. It will, however, keep me rowing productively and keep me from hyperventilating about the dishonesty (or alleged dishonesty) of a few. The more of us do the right thing, the lower the percentage of falsified times there will be, right? The whole point of this for me is to stay motivated to keep working to improve and stay fit and strong over the long haul. One way I stay motivated is to use the rankings--for inspiration, for the fun of getting higher on the lists. Since I can't seem to do a thing about someone lying to get on the top of the list, getting all aggravated about it is not going to make me row better or more. It's just going to make me waste more time doing what I'm doing right now, being pulled into endless blatherfests about the whole issue.

[TomR]

It's just going to make me waste more time doing what I'm doing right now, being pulled into endless blatherfests about the whole issue.

Carla--

Referring to the issue as a "blatherfest" trivializes it. I don't believe it is trivial. There have been trivial statements and foolish behavior, but the issue is important to our community.

One way to deal w/ it is to say, as you now have, I'll keep my nose clean.

Or you could use your relationship w/ Dwayne both to support him, which you have done, and to encourage him to eliminate the cloud of suspicion. His Taff friends could urge him to resolve the matter and restore a higher level of confidence in the scores people report.

Tom

[michaelb]

I think we have lost sight of the purposes of the ranking. Only last year, when the Ind-v was first implemented, many of us were opposed to that level of scrutiny and verification. We don't need video proof, and we don't need to destroy the concept of the rankings. The rankings are voluntary submissions of rows from people's training diaries based on honesty and trust. Although some race results get ranked, the rankings are not a substitute for race results. The rankings do lose meaning at the top, since many top racers don't rank any of their rows, and top rowers should be going to venues and winning races anyway. The rankings are for all of us in the "middle" to compare ourselves with people all over the world who honestly aren't going to ever win anything (particularly now that my strategy of just living til 80 and then racing has been made much, much harder by BobS).

If you want to race distances other than the 2k, or add additional validity to your rows, as well as fun and challenge, get rowpro and race them online. We will pretty much race any distance anyone wants, and I can't see a reason why anyone would question or challenge a RP race result.

[Dickie]

It's just going to make me waste more time doing what I'm doing right now, being pulled into endless blatherfests about the whole issue.

Carla--

Referring to the issue as a "blatherfest" trivializes it. I don't believe it is trivial. There have been trivial statements and foolish behavior, but the issue is important to our community.

One way to deal w/ it is to say, as you now have, I'll keep my nose clean.

Or you could use your relationship w/ Dwayne both to support him, which you have done, and to encourage him to eliminate the cloud of suspicion. His Taff friends could urge him to resolve the matter and restore a higher level of confidence in the scores people report.

Tom

Ok, enough is enough, if its not a blatherfest, then how would you or anyone else fix it. All I've read so far IS blather. There are no constructive comments on how to fix the problem. How would you eliminate cheaters? Short of going to an all race result ranking, I don't believe its possible. This is a worldwide ranking, there are not races in every country and certainly not races in every category, not everyone can afford a PM3 or a video camera, so give me some solutions.

You could say that you are making headway by calling out those you believe are cheating, but what have you accomplished. If the times are legitimate then you have cast aspersions on an honorable person (hardly the act of another honorable person). If they are not, you can't prove it, and the person involved, who is by definition dishonorable, certainly will not have the honor to remove the times. All you have accomplished is to raise the ire of a lot of honest people, and may I posit, you may be inciting more false times to be posted. There is more than one reason to post a false time. I have heard ego as one, but how about someone getting their jollies by inciting a riot in cyberspace (Commonly called Trolls).

I would like to see the rankings be free of cheaters, but how?

And by the way, Dwayne, was goaded into doing a 2000 that received an IND_V, and still that is not good enough, because the PM3 can be "scammed". He is derided because there is no video. Well, let me be the first to tell you it is easier to scam a photo or video than the PM3. And beyond the already achieved IND_V how would you have him prove it, the racing season is over.

Fred Dickie

[hjs]

.



I would like to see the rankings be free of cheaters, but how?


Fred Dickie

Alan Maddocks
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Total posts: 484
Location: Loughborough Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Hart wrote:
Quote:
I agree wholeheartedly with this, with the present suspicions its time for the C2 rankings to come of age. An official ranking where only times performed in competition are recognised is now well overdue and would stop all doubt and suspicion.

We could still have an unofficial one for motivation only if people wanted it, but there would be no doubt about who deserves top ranking because it would have been seen to be done and it would be official with no doubts.


Actually, this pretty much exists at the moment: you can search the Ranking just by race results by using the Source dropdown. Any change would, presumably, be pretty identical to this.


David,

Yes it would, and would be easy to implement.
But why not just publish times achieved in races and nothing else?

Problem solved!

A more credible sport!!

To the benefit and interest of C2!!!

Alan.

Re other distances (Stansbie's post) ....one could use the current system

The 2K is the gold standard!
It shouldn't be tainted gold!!

[Porkchop]

.



I would like to see the rankings be free of cheaters, but how?


Fred Dickie

Alan Maddocks
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Total posts: 484
Location: Loughborough Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Hart wrote:
Quote:
I agree wholeheartedly with this, with the present suspicions its time for the C2 rankings to come of age. An official ranking where only times performed in competition are recognised is now well overdue and would stop all doubt and suspicion.

We could still have an unofficial one for motivation only if people wanted it, but there would be no doubt about who deserves top ranking because it would have been seen to be done and it would be official with no doubts.


Actually, this pretty much exists at the moment: you can search the Ranking just by race results by using the Source dropdown. Any change would, presumably, be pretty identical to this.


David,

Yes it would, and would be easy to implement.
But why not just publish times achieved in races and nothing else?

Problem solved!

A more credible sport!!

To the benefit and interest of C2!!!

Alan.

Re other distances (Stansbie's post) ....one could use the current system

The 2K is the gold standard!
It shouldn't be tainted gold!!

That is a fair enough solution if the goal is to cater to the needs or wishes of those who race. There are some (and I would guess a large number) of "recreational" ergers (bizarre as that concept may seem). This proposal may benefit "the sport," but it excludes a considerable portion of C2's customer base from participation in an online logging and ranking system that I, at least, have found somewhat helpul. C2 would need to decide which group is more important, elite racers or the mass of duffers. Given that product sales fund this site, I think economic considerations weigh against the former group.

[hjs]

That is a fair enough solution if the goal is to cater to the needs or wishes of those who race. There are some (and I would guess a large number) of "recreational" ergers (bizarre as that concept may seem). This proposal may benefit "the sport," but it excludes a considerable portion of C2's customer base from participation in an online logging and ranking system that I, at least, have found somewhat helpul. C2 would need to decide which group is more important, elite racers or the mass of duffers. Given that product sales fund this site, I think economic considerations weigh against the former group.

If indoorrowing became more populair and bigger this would be benefit c2. Would this harm the interrest of "recreational" ergers? I don,t see how.

[Sasha]

Would this harm the interrest of "recreational" ergers? I don,t see how.

As a new duffer I find great motivation in seeing that there are others like me or a tiny bit better. I don't give a tinker's damn about racing times and never will because I can't relate to them. And I just bought a new C2.

[Porkchop]

Ok, enough is enough, if its not a blatherfest, then how would you or anyone else fix it. All I've read so far IS blather. There are no constructive comments on how to fix the problem. How would you eliminate cheaters? Short of going to an all race result ranking, I don't believe its possible. This is a worldwide ranking, there are not races in every country and certainly not races in every category, not everyone can afford a PM3 or a video camera, so give me some solutions.

You could say that you are making headway by calling out those you believe are cheating, but what have you accomplished. If the times are legitimate then you have cast aspersions on an honorable person (hardly the act of another honorable person). If they are not, you can't prove it, and the person involved, who is by definition dishonorable, certainly will not have the honor to remove the times. All you have accomplished is to raise the ire of a lot of honest people, and may I posit, you may be inciting more false times to be posted. There is more than one reason to post a false time. I have heard ego as one, but how about someone getting their jollies by inciting a riot in cyberspace (Commonly called Trolls).

I would like to see the rankings be free of cheaters, but how?

And by the way, Dwayne, was goaded into doing a 2000 that received an IND_V, and still that is not good enough, because the PM3 can be "scammed". He is derided because there is no video. Well, let me be the first to tell you it is easier to scam a photo or video than the PM3. And beyond the already achieved IND_V how would you have him prove it, the racing season is over.

Fred Dickie

Fred,

I wholeheartedly agree.

Accusations of cheating without real proof (or with only "proof" that cannot be shared) are pointless and heinous. I've certainly been excoriated enough for pointing that out in this and the old forum. Despite what some have said, that has been, and still is, the only issue I care about. Any other points I have made were intended to be subsidiary to and supportive of that position.

Some people will never be satisfied with any degree of proof. The acrimony that these "cheating" threads have engendered is astonishing. The participation level in the "new" forum seems to be far less than in the old. I wonder how much is attributable to the recent argumentative tone.

In addition, people here take this "sport" much too seriously. With all due respect to the makers and users of Concept2 equipment, this is a made-up sport for users of a piece of exercise equipment that most people, even athletes, cannot even identify, let alone use. Aside from a very few competitors, no one cares about world records in the "sport." For most of the world, it is no different than some of the more bizarre records reported in the Guinness Book of World Records. Other than respect and comradeship from one's fellow competitors, the only thing anyone gets out of this sport is a memento of placing well, and, in a few cases, a free trip to a competition or two, funded by Concept2 out of the goodness of its corporate heart. Accusations of "cheating" here would be viewed by the rest of the world on roughly the same level as a cheating scandal in a local Tiddly-Winks tournament. "World records" based on a readout from an electronic monitor just don't have much cachet in the real world -- one might as well be racing on Tony Little's Gazelle as far as the general public is concerned. We may think that the movements of those little boats on the monitor is significant, but no one else does. It is probably less interesting than the fellow I recently saw on television boasting that he was in the Guinness Book of World Records as having the longest nipple hair in the world. At least that is worth a laugh.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my erg, and I appreciate the help I have received from some on this board. To those people, I say "Thank you, very much." In those limited areas where I have some expertise, I have attempted to be of assistance as well. I hope that I have succeeded at that.

Nevertheless, this tempest in a teapot has gone beyond the point of absurdity. It's time to get a life, so I'm taking an indeterminate hiatus from this forum. I may read it from time to time, but I won't be posting anymore. I wish you all well.

[fish]

Porkchop is right.

As a recreational indoor (never been on the water) rower, the rankings are fun. I use them for motivation and inspiration. One of the first posts I read when I found this forum was from Robin Hartman. She had decided to do 30-minute Thursdays, and she was excited about her new PB, and moving up in the rankings. What an inspiration she was for me.

Arlene

[johnlvs2run]

What I believe:

• It is important whether all the times in the rankings are legitimate;
  
  But it's not all that important;
  
  What is the most important is what I do;
  
  If the rankings are reasonably legitimate, I will use them, if they are not then I will do something else;

As it is now the rankings' lack of legitimacy was originally set to a huge scale by the inclusion of slide times with no disclosure of that on the list. Before I stated anything about slides, there were others who did, and stated their own trials that showed up to a 6% difference in their times. This was achieved without the same practice done on the slides as the erg, and these were not heavy heavyweights who achieved these differences.

When I was given the opportunity to row on the slides, thanks to FrankJ and others on the forum, I found them a delight to use, and making far more obvious the contribution of the legs to the stroke. The slides are great and I think everyone should have the opportunity to use and train with them. Even more I would like for C2 to implement Warren Berger's design or similar, whereas he has converted a C2 erg from static to dynamic. I will post diagrams of this elsewhere.

When I started rowing on the slides I immediately found they were 1 1/2 to 2 seconds faster for each 500 meters, though I'd had no previous practice on them. Now I believe this difference is more like 1.5 to 3 seconds, though I am 143 pounds, and the difference will be larger the heavier the rower. The difference is best obtained by using the same meters per stroke. YES slide times should continue to be entered in the rankings, but NOT in the same rankings as standard erg times that have been accomplished without the use of the slides.

There are some who think the slides make no difference, and yet they enter all their times done "on" the slides, not the standard erg, and others who say for sure they do make a difference. I KNOW that they do and the difference is significant. The solution to this is to make a separate rankings for the times, OR simply to clarify on the "same" rankings page which times were done on slides, and to have a sort feature for this. For example, "Slides" could be put in please of the Ind, or the Ind-V, perhaps with Sli or Sli-V.

C2 has dragged their feet and done NOTHING about this issue which, as far as I am concerned, has broadcast to the world that it is okay to cheat in the rankings. Yes it is "legal" per se to put slide times in the rankings and again I think people should be able to enter their slide times in the rankings. However it is C2 who defines for these times to be mixed together with standard erg times. Since they, the developers of the rankings, give the checkered flag to this 3% difference then it clears the way for others who wish to create their own differences and advantages in the rankings.

[hjs]

Would this harm the interrest of "recreational" ergers? I don,t see how.

As a new duffer I find great motivation in seeing that there are others like me or a tiny bit better. I don't give a tinker's damn about racing times and never will because I can't relate to them. And I just bought a new C2.

And your point is ????