Hopefully not a ridiculous question: DPS

[jackarabit]

It seems that our shorthand abbreviations don't always appear as we intend them to appear. I think it's desirable to recognize the other fellow's intention rather than attempt a defeat in detail based on typos and oversights. This cuts all ways and applies to us all if we want to judge the argument on its merits rather than the opponent's clarity of expression. Jack

[tinak]

WOW! Thanks for all of the replies so far. I've got a lot to read!

To answer Citroen:

I'm 46, weigh 152 lbs, am a former competitive olympic lifter and power lifter, and crossfit 2-4 days per week. My rating is generally most comfortable from 22-26 SPM, and this is where most of the prescribed rows have been falling, so that's been nice. My average watts have been creeping up with each row, so I'm now averaging around 95 watts per row with an average HR of around 130; a couple of weeks ago, I was lucky to average around 83 watts for a row. The rows are landing around the 5K mark 24 minute, and about 800 meters of that is warmup and cooldown rowing. Since this is base building stuff, I'm averaging around a 2:30 split right now in these sessions.

I've done a 2K, but it wasn't an eyeball bleeding effort, just felt pretty damned hard, and came in at 8:45 I think. That was close to 2 months ago, I'm sure I'd beat that time, so I'll test it and get back to you with detailed splits. Should those be by the 500m, by the minute, or....? My 500 m has decreased since I started from 2:30 to 1:57, but THAT was a balls out effort, and I know I should be better, given the explosive power in my engine (legs).

Oh yes. And lastly, I have my damper set between 2-3, generally, at a DF of around 100. 120 also feels comfortable. 140 feels too draggy. I've been reading this forum a ton, and had already known that a damper level 10=death, so my damper has never been above a 5 or 6.

Thanks so much, everyone. I really appreciate it! When I get brave, I'll post a video for you all to critique. I'd like this to be one of my strengths, rather than one of my so-so skills.

Tina

[jamesg]

You're doing very well. Ratings 22-26 suit your height perfectly for a lengthy relaxed stroke with plenty of work in the pull, for LSS pieces under HR control, and you've already seen the effects.

Your low drag will help you with pull speed and allow time for recovery; stroke length is obtained using the right recovery sequence which is Arms away, Swing well forward, Lift knees until shins are vertical.

The best (indeed only) way to make boats and flywheels go faster at any given rating is to row full length, forcing the legs to do their bit. Don't pull hard, it'll only make you tired before time, but pull fast; you'll get hard hands anyway, and if you want to lose a little weight and/or gain endurance you need lots of mileage.

An index of stroke quality is Watts/Rating. At the moment it looks as if yours is near 4 (100W at rate 25). If that gets you to HR 130 with plenty of sweat, fine, but there is room for some technical improvement.

I'd forget the 10 mps idea for now, if you ever had it, if not forever: 10m at 25 rating is pace 2:00, 203 W, double your current level.

Years ago coach Mike Caviston developed the Wolverine plan for U Michigan Women's rowing: http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf
The L4 tables in particular are very useful and express in numbers the basic philosophy of rowing: good strokes move boats.

For a 2k already done in 8:45 (pace 2:11) he suggests these training paces:
Warmup 3:05
Rate 16@2:44; - 18@2:38 - 20@2:33 - 22@ 2:27 - 24@2:22 - 26@2:17.
Most work can be done at 20 to 24.
The format in ten minute sets at ratings say 18-20-22-20-18 or worse (2 minutes each) is where the kick comes from.

This gent shows how rowing is done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

[hjs]

...So you never seen a ladies race? They do not rate 25, they rate a lot higher...
Think for yourself Kev. 10 spm is nonsense.

Just to be clear the 10MPS principle is for training not for racing. Tina; the original poster is already averaging 8.5M/9.5MPS at 5.5’ and both of my 5’ daughters erg comfortably at 10MPS.

I’m pretty sure anybody can manage 10MPS – obviously at a slower pace than an unrestricted MPS/higher SPM achieves. The idea is to do your best at 10MPS and improve your pace naturally - then you’ll know any pace improvement is a function of technique & power rather than rating - and when you do rate up, i.e. race, you’ll be much faster.

10 MPS is definitely not a racing strategy. Having said that – the 6:00/31SPM guy you describe is averaging 11MPS and guess what he would average at 33SPM?

I know racing is free meters.

I also know faster rowers row far above 10 mps. A 6.00 guy will do most of his work below 1.45/50 rating 18/20 mostly.

Everybody can row 10 mps, everybody also can row without legs, or with one hand. The point is, is it usefull.

Often the slower we go, the more meters per stroke we take. And sprinting the other way around.

In short using 10 mps means, slower rowers only use lower ratings.
Faster rowers rowers always rate higher.
Shorter people, who by definition have stroke, use low ratings, tall people use high ratings, that is if we take that taller often on average are the faster ones.
No matter what, this is always wrong

[jamesg]

The point about 10 mps, is that it's easy to read and concentrates the mind on moving the boat, and not in just shuttling up and down.
So it's useful, but clearly has it's limits. These are due to the cube law, I'd be perfectly happy to go 10m at 20 (pace 2:30) and at 40 too (pace 1:15), but it's a little unlikely.
Remember the days when we could chain at 30?

[hjs]

The point about 10 mps, is that it's easy to read and concentrates the mind on moving the boat, and not in just shuttling up and down.
So it's useful, but clearly has it's limits. These are due to the cube law, I'd be perfectly happy to go 10m at 20 (pace 2:30) and at 40 too (pace 1:15), but it's a little unlikely.
Remember the days when we could chain at 30?

Indeed, easy to read is the only reason.

Ps what Kevin did not mention, but is very relevant is the fact Paul S never uses easy erging. Every session is at least pretty tough. Easy long sessions are never done.

[KevJGK]

I'd forget the 10 mps idea for now, if you ever had it, if not forever: 10m at 25 rating is pace 2:00, 203 W, double your current level.

Years ago coach Mike Caviston developed the Wolverine plan for U Michigan Women's rowing: http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf
The L4 tables in particular are very useful and express in numbers the basic philosophy of rowing: good strokes move boats.

Thanks James.

So 10 mps should be forgotten, but L4 sessions between 16@2:44 & 26@2:17 (that’s between 11.43 mps & 8.4 mps) “are very useful”.

We often hear 16 spm erging criticised for causing back injuries and Mike Caviston himself said the 26 spm paces (or more accurately, those sets containing them) could be academic due to their intensity.

If we take a more sensible approach for Tina, and suggest somewhere between those extremes’ we end up around 10 mps.

Best wishes,

[Carl Watts]

For training row my DPS is well into double digits, usually aiming at 12 or more metres but that because I'm rating down at 17 to 18 spm at a reasonable pace to match.

[jamesg]

So 10 mps should be forgotten, but L4 sessions between 16@2:44 & 26@2:17 (that’s between 11.43 mps & 8.4 mps) “are very useful”.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that contradiction. Clearly we all have some rating/power combination that corresponds exactly to 10 mps. It's always a good idea to make the boat go a long way each stroke, within reason. What's not on is going 5m per stroke. The last 2k I pulled was just below 8 minutes at rate 24-5: so almost exactly 10mps. I won't be doing that again any time soon. If a 10 m stroke at a good rate and the rhythm were comfortable for me for UT2 and 1, I'd have a good reason to use it, but if not?

8.4 to 11.4 mps is a very wide range (remembering the cube law speed/power), and it's exactly this that shows how difficult to use it 10 could be.

The "beauty" of ten is that it's exactly ten, so we can pull on the zeros if we want to. On the 9½ s would stump me. When sheer boredom sets in I maybe try to see how far I go with 100 strokes; but usually lose count, tho it seems to be 1080 - 1100m at rate 19-20. Paul is 5'10 and a lot stronger than me (6'2), so presumably is or was comfortable for plenty of training work with 10 mps, at rate say 24-25.

So I wouldn't use 10 mps as a fixed rule, believing it depends too much on our shape, size, age, strength, sex etc. When we want to go a little faster at training ratings, in reality we apply some diabolical combination of longer stroke, higher force and higher rating. My preferred protocol (constant work) already differs enough from what actually happens, but at least it's easy to do.

[Cyclingman1]

I suppose we can all analyze rowing results to death with all manner of data. To some extent all data are important but some more so than others.

I think that meters/stroke would fall into the secondary category. For me, Watts/stoke tells me more.

For example, today I did 9022m @1:58.7 @27SPM, which is 9.4 m/s and 7.7 W/s.
A few days ago, I did 2K @1:46.7 @30SPM, which is 9.4 m/s and 9.6 W/s.

The 9.4 m/s doesn't really tell me much. The 9.6 vs 7.7 W/s tells me I was putting forth way more effort on the 2K vs the 9K. The SPM of course figures in both calculations and differed by 3.

What I have is 25% more wattage per stroke and 11% faster SPM for a total wattage increase of 38%.

So, am I missing something here?

[jamesg]

Using constant W/Rate is very simple.

Having done your 2k at about 290W rate 30, the Interactive suggests UT1 at 60-70%, so 175 to 200 W and UT2 at up to 175. Ratings are usually reduced in proportion.

The Wolverine (page 18) for a 290W 2k suggests a set of Paces in the L4 tables (such as 2:05 at 20). This type of rowing puts the accent on the stroke itself, as well as Lactate, and is typical crew work.
http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf

[Edward4492]

I'm completely in the "watts per stroke" camp. I've spent the past several months working at 20r. 20 is a fairly round number to work with and I doubt there would be much of a difference in going to 19 or 21. My target has been 10 w/s, again a nice round number, usually done at 200w with my longest being 10,000m. My goal has been to carry that number to the higher stroke rates, trying to maintain the same form at faster speeds. So far so good. 2000m @ 6:59.1 at 304w and 31r, about 9.8 w/s. To prepare for a 1000m challenge we're having at the gym where I train I pulled a 3:25.8 @ 321w at 32r. Pretty much dead on 10 w/s. Not a blazing fast 1000m, but not bad. I wasn't going 100%, but 95% for sure. I forcibly focus on trying to maintain the same form at 30r that I use at 20r. I have to believe that (literally) over a million meters done at the low rates with moderate power grooves the muscly memory. I use a low drag (102) and feel as if I have a nice quick jump out of the catch. When we talk about a quick catch; I intrepret that to mean as I come "out of the hole" and begin my drive there's a very subtle moment when I feel the wheel pick up and that's when I drop my heels and start the quick drive. When it's done properly (not every stroke unfortunately!) there's just this smooth quick almost effortless acceleration. Okay, maybe not effortless. But it just feels right and the monitor usually validates the effort with a faster pace or higher watts.

I find it interesting when people complain of boredom on the erg. I'm always looking for that perfect stroke, and then try and string together perfect strokes.I'm looking for slightly faster speeds, at lower heart rates, and easier perceived effort. There's days when it's there and other days when it's a struggle to find a groove; but it usually comes. My next target is 10.5 w/s, and so it goes.

[Cyclingman1]

I have a concern that doing 10W/s @20 SPM does not necessarily translate into 10W/s @30 SPM. At least for many. The rest time at 20 SPM is double that at 30 SPM. Does this idea apply for 150 W at 15 SPM? There the rest time is even greater. To suddenly cut the rest time in half or more and maintain the same handle force is not going to happen for most rowers. That requires a considerable leap in fitness. What am I missing?

[Citroen]

I have a concern that doing 10W/s @20 SPM does not necessarily translate into 10W/s @30 SPM. At least for many. The rest time at 20 SPM is double that at 30 SPM. Does this idea apply for 150 W at 15 SPM? There the rest time is even greater. To suddenly cut the rest time in half or more and maintain the same handle force is not going to happen for most rowers. That requires a considerable leap in fitness. What am I missing?

You are not missing a trick. That's precisely the problem with the watts/stroke stuff. There's someone who's been banned from here who could never get to grips with the fact that rating higher isn't possible while keeping the output power (per stroke) fixed. You have to work harder and have less recovery time, less time to breathe, something is going to break as you increase the rating.

[quickstepper]

When it's done properly (not every stroke unfortunately!) there's just this smooth quick almost effortless acceleration. Okay, maybe not effortless. But it just feels right and the monitor usually validates the effort with a faster pace or higher watts.

I find it interesting when people complain of boredom on the erg. I'm always looking for that perfect stroke, and then try and string together perfect strokes.I'm looking for slightly faster speeds, at lower heart rates, and easier perceived effort. There's days when it's there and other days when it's a struggle to find a groove; but it usually comes.

I'm completely with you on this one... It's a beautiful thing when you get that smooth effortless stroke... When I get that it's like "Whoa... What was that. Neat. Let's do that again". Sometimes I can replicate it other times not so lucky. Also... It's weird but sometimes I can sense that perfect stroke about to be rowed.

I think that's what the beginner Pete plan tries to emphasize. Do the longer weekly rows by going nice and steady, relaxed and trying to make each stroke as efficient as possible. When there's a groove it feels absolutely fantastic.

Regarding the topic of DPS... For me it's only used as a countdown to the end of my workout (ie: only 300 meters left... That's about 27 strokes, let the countdown start)
Regards,
Marco