Altitude And Air Resistance

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 23 2005, 09:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 23 2005, 09:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 24 2005, 12:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 24 2005, 12:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... <br /> </td></tr></table><br />? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />!

[[old] Sir Pirate]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 24 2005, 02:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 24 2005, 02:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 23 2005, 09:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 23 2005, 09:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 24 2005, 12:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 24 2005, 12:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... <br /> </td></tr></table><br />? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><img src='http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticon ... ese028.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Parky--<br /><br />Welcome back to the Forum. <br /><br />Arguing w/ John is good practice for the day when your kids get to be teenagers. <br /><br />Tom

[[old] Parky]

Tom R - Thanks for the welcome back.<br /><br />I kept saying "No! Don't do it" as I typed but I was overwhelmed with this feeling that I could change John's mind. Of course, as soon as I hit the "Add reply" button this feeling disappeared, and I realised that I had just wasted another twenty minutes of my life attempting the Forum equivalent of nailing jelly to the wall.<br /><br />Still, discussing altitude makes a change from the old chestnut of "trading weight for pace" doesn't it? <br /><br />DP

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Parky+Feb 24 2005, 07:53 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Parky @ Feb 24 2005, 07:53 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tom R - Thanks for the welcome back.<br /><br />I kept saying "No! Don't do it" as I  typed but I was overwhelmed with this feeling that I could change John's mind. Of course, as soon as I hit the "Add reply" button this feeling disappeared, and I realised that I had just wasted another twenty minutes of my life attempting the Forum equivalent of nailing jelly to the wall.<br /><br />Still, discussing altitude makes a change from the old chestnut of "trading weight for pace" doesn't it?  <br /><br />DP <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />But now you make an interesting point, we would have less weight to trade at altitude. Another conundrum for John to address. <br /><br />I think he has chosen to go the ignorence route, rather than admit his errors.

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 24 2005, 12:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 24 2005, 12:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chop,<br /><br />Yes I agree that sprinters have nothing to do with the issue.<br /><br />The machine aids performance at any altitude.  This aid is greater at altitude due to the thinner and lesser density of the air.<br /><br />I believe the work output will be the similar, regardless of the altitude.  vo2 max is a measure of work output, but it's correlation with performance is low.  Thus it does not suffice as a single measure or predictor of performance.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You seem to be taking the position that at some level of training or aerobic fitness, available O2 levels are irrelevant to performance.  That doesn't seem plausible.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Okay, do you think oxygen utilization is the "only" limiting factor to performance?<br /><br />If you do, then only our oxygen utilization capacity will determine how fast we can run.<br /><br />However I believe you will agree there are many other physiological factors that can affect one's performance.<br /><br />If -- and since -- oxygen utilization is not the ONLY factor that limits performance, then reduction of available oxygen by 10% will not result in a 10% reduction in performance.<br /><br />Indeed this is the case. If it is true that oxygen availability is 10% less in Kenya, for example, then 10k times should be at least 3 minutes slower. It would not be possible to run a 10k within 20 seconds of one's sea level time, at altitude.<br /><br />This 20 seconds is only a 1% difference. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Why do I continue to respond? It seemed like an innocent enough amusement, a small guilty pleasure, but now . . .! <br /><br />John, I don't know what meaning you ascribe to the word "aid" vis-a vis machines "aiding" man, but in my dictionary it means something like making a defined task in connection with the achievement of a goal easier. To draw on my youth on the prairies, for example, a combine makes harvesting and threshing grain easier -- no more swinging a scythe to reap the grain and no more flailing at the harvested grain stalks to separate the straw and chaff from the wheat. When it comes to erging and cycling, the task is simply to operate the machine. The goal may be to make the machine go faster or farther, but the machine "aids' nothing -- it is simply there to be operated. The results depend entirely on the efforts of the operator. The rower has to pull the handle and the cyclist has to push the pedals. <br /><br />If you meant, instead, that a bicycle "aids" the body in moving faster or farther than it can run in any given time or over any given distance, well, I don't have any idea what that has to do with performance of athletes at altitude or anywhere else.<br /><br />You are now shifting the argument again -- do I believe that oxygen utilization is the "only" limiting factor to performance? No, but the underlying assumption of your hypothesis is that all other things remain unchanged when moving from sea level to altitude. The hypothesis was that you take an outstanding performer on an erg at sea level, bring him to altitude, and he will be an even more outstanding performer. <br /><br />Under those circumstances there are only two factors at work -- air resistance and O2 availability. Everyone on this thread except you understands that the change in altitude has no effect on the air resistance to the rotation of the flywheel of an erg (and the scores reported on the C2 monitor), whereas it does have an effect on cyclists and some runners. That leaves only O2 availability as a limiting factor with respect to any given rower.<br /><br />The question of physiological adaptation to altitude is an entirely separate one. Given enough time training at altitude, an athlete may be able to increase aerobic capacity. One of the body's responses to higher altitude is to increase the quantity of red blood cells in body so as to be able to absorb and use more oxygen at the reduced O2 concentration available. None of that was part of your original argument. Some athletes may adapt faster than others, some may not adapt at all, some may just have lousy training regimens or poor running technique, but that is not at issue in this thread.<br /><br />Now it may well be that some or all elite athletes already have higher red blood cell counts than we mere mortals (whether genetically caused or the result of training) and that they may be able to perform at altitude somewhat better than we because of that fact. Nevertheless, the question was not about comparisons between different individuals, it was about comparisons of performances by the same individual under two differing circumstances -- sea level and high altitude.<br /><br />Porkchop

[[old] DavidA]

I know that air resistance <b>must</b> have a big effect on the erg, because I am no where near as fast as many others, even other lightweight males in their 40s. The only reason that I can think of is added air resistance from my beard. <br /><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(It can't have anything to do with my lack of training, size, etc. )</span><br /><br />David<br />

[[old] gw1]

During the late stages of preperation for a major race 4 years ago, i spent a week in Boulder training. Every workout during my last 16 week cycle is recorded, this particular week was the only week in the entire race preperation that i did not make any improvements on my previous weeks times for each of the interval, fartlek and neg. split pieces that i rowed that week. The next week back in FL i was back on track!<br />Just a personal observation!<br /><br />GW

[[old] starboardrigged1seat]

Let's let this die? I don't think there's a discussion anymore...let's all calm down.

[[old] John Rupp]

<img src='http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticon ... ese028.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] GeorgeD]

I thought the wheel was a great invention - but the 'ignore' function is much more than I could ever have imagined.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps It would be even better if it worked on posts where the person concerned has been 'quoted'

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Parky+Feb 24 2005, 02:23 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Parky @ Feb 24 2005, 02:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For any individual, for any distance, performance at higher altitudes will be worse than at lower altitudes. </td></tr></table><br />Accordingly, you must feel that even the 100 meters would be slower at altitude due to less power, and longer events correspondingly so.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For sports where the air resistance overcome by the athlete is significant (e.g. running, cycling) there will be a distance at the altitude in question at which performance is the same as at sea level, because of the way the two factors work in opposition. For distances shorter than this, altitude will be a benefit. For longer distances, altitude will be a disadvantage. Thus, in terms of absolute performance, sprinters would prefer to perform at altitude and distance runners at sea level. </td></tr></table><br />It is interesting you feel this would be the case for cycling and for running, but not for rowing on an erg.<br /><br />Your summary is in many ways true but there might be other possibilities.<br /><br />For example, that a DF range of 120 (or so) at sea level gives the same <b>performance</b> as a drag factor of 120 (or so) at altitude. Certainly you can make the drag factors to show the same reading, likewise a person could write "120" on a piece of paper at sea level and at altitude, but that doesn't automatically make the conditions the same. A reading on a performance monitor measure air flow, has very little to do with the changes of climate from one venue to another.<br /><br />Taking only sea level examples, the monitor will adjust for humidity. If the humidity is 15% or 100% you can get the monitor to show the same reading regardless. However, <b>this does not change the humidity!</b>.<br /><br />Likewise with altitude. You can certainly change the readings on the monitor and adjust them to be the same regardless. But doing so does not change the conditions, now the lighter air and it's beneficial effects on the fan.<br /><br />You do bring up the interesting point that IF the drag factor somehow adjusted for conditions other than it is set up to measure, that all events would be slower at altitude. This is presuming the anerobic component is only otherwise extended by lighter air and nothing physiological that happens internally. That may or may not be the case.<br /><br />However if indeed "all" events would be slower at altitude, then even 50-100 meter events would be slower. That's a good point as such 50-100 meter events would be easier to measure and repeat than would 2k's.

[[old] Sirrowsalot]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 25 2005, 08:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 25 2005, 08:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Parky+Feb 24 2005, 02:23 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Parky @ Feb 24 2005, 02:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For any individual, for any distance, performance at higher altitudes will be worse than at lower altitudes. </td></tr></table><br />Accordingly, you must feel that even the 100 meters would be slower at altitude due to less power, and longer events correspondingly so.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For sports where the air resistance overcome by the athlete is significant (e.g. running, cycling) there will be a distance at the altitude in question at which performance is the same as at sea level, because of the way the two factors work in opposition. For distances shorter than this, altitude will be a benefit. For longer distances, altitude will be a disadvantage. Thus, in terms of absolute performance, sprinters would prefer to perform at altitude and distance runners at sea level. </td></tr></table><br />It is interesting you feel this would be the case for cycling and for running, but not for rowing on an erg.<br /><br />Your summary is in many ways true but there might be other possibilities.<br /><br />For example, that a DF range of 120 (or so) at sea level gives the same <b>performance</b> as a drag factor of 120 (or so) at altitude. Certainly you can make the drag factors to show the same reading, likewise a person could write "120" on a piece of paper at sea level and at altitude, but that doesn't automatically make the conditions the same. A reading on a performance monitor measure air flow, has very little to do with the changes of climate from one venue to another.<br /><br />Taking only sea level examples, the monitor will adjust for humidity. If the humidity is 15% or 100% you can get the monitor to show the same reading regardless. However, <b>this does not change the humidity!</b>.<br /><br />Likewise with altitude. You can certainly change the readings on the monitor and adjust them to be the same regardless. But doing so does not change the conditions, now the lighter air and it's beneficial effects on the fan.<br /><br />You do bring up the interesting point that IF the drag factor somehow adjusted for conditions other than it is set up to measure, that all events would be slower at altitude. This is presuming the anerobic component is only otherwise extended by lighter air and nothing physiological that happens internally. That may or may not be the case.<br /><br />However if indeed "all" events would be slower at altitude, then even 50-100 meter events would be slower. That's a good point as such 50-100 meter events would be easier to measure and repeat than would 2k's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As Jerry once said to George, "You're not very bright, are you?"<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Feb 24 2005, 06:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Feb 24 2005, 06:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your erg wouldn't know the difference, and it's the erg that measures how fast you're going.  So for the erg altitude is not a variable, whereas for you it is. </td></tr></table><br />That's another point that we can agree on.<br /><br />The erg can adjust for differences in air flow and humidity, for example, and make the drag factor the same.<br /><br />But it can't change the humidity or the altitude.<br /><br />Thus in the case of altitude, the erg will be at altitude but still think it's at sea level.<br /><br />Then when the fan spins faster, the erg doesn't know any difference.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-rjw+Feb 23 2005, 08:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rjw @ Feb 23 2005, 08:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They are qualifying times C2 uses for WIRC and can be found at <br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/rowing/racing/q ... gtimes.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/rowing/racing/q ... mes.asp</a> </td></tr></table><br />C2's allowance for 50+ lightweights is <b>14 seconds</b>!!!!!<br /><br />Unbelieveable.<br /><br />It shouldn't be higher than 3-4 seconds.