Altitude And Air Resistance

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Sirrowsalot+Feb 23 2005, 09:50 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Feb 23 2005, 09:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Can you do the 10k at your 2k + 5?<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, But I can do a 10k at well below your 2k pace. I am therefore much, much fitter than you, though you may be "fitter for an old man." Congratulations. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Actually, that's not correct.<br /><br />Yes am older than you, being 58 and almost 59 years of age.<br /><br />But... my 10k pace is closer to the WR for my age than yours is for your age.<br /><br />As a matter of fact and of record, my 10k pace is closer to the World Record pace for my age, than your 10k PATT percentage is to MY time.<br /><br />Based on this, and even though your chronical age is less, you're much "less" fit, as well as being a much "older" man physically than I am.

[[old] Bayko]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 04:58 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 04:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />In the case of Clarke there were a number of factors:<br /><br />#1-  His poor attitude.  First of all let me say that I like Ron Clarke.  He is a very fine fellow and much more outspoken, aggressive and determined than his attitude would lead most people to believe.  He is also very helpful, kind, and generous.<br /><br />This being said, he was afraid of competing at Mexico City from at least 4 years before, and you could see the tension when he competed there, in every fiber of his body.  Thus I think his failure was primarily a mental obsession, and one one that was physical.<br /><br />#2-  This being said, Clarke did not have the fitness in 1968 that he did in 1966-7.  From his own writings in retrospect, he states that he did not train as well, did not compete in the pre Olympics (as did 5000m gold medalist Gamoudi, also a sea level runner), and did not even compete -- at all!!! -- prior to the Olympic Games.  As he later stated in his own worlds, these were all major mistakes that he made, which were also physical and not just mental ones.<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John, you seldom fail to disappoint. Leave it to you to be the first person that I am aware of in the 37 years since that race to characterize Ron Clarke as both mentally AND physically weak. <br /><br />Zatopek, who knew at least as much as you, didn't think of Clarke as being mentally weak. As I'm sure you know, Zatopek gave Clarke one of his own Olympic Gold Medals as a gift along with a note to the effect that no one deserved it more. Such was Zatopek's belief that Clarke had been robbed at Mexico. It isn't the kind of thing that one of the greatest of all time does for a mental weakling or a 'fraidy cat.<br /><br />As for is fitness in 1968, on August 29th, 45 days before the Mexico City race, Clarke ran 27:49.4 in London which although 10 seconds slower than his World Record was still 15 seconds faster than anyone else in history had run. Anyone including all five runners who finished ahead of him at Mexico City. He was still more fit, at that distance, than anyone else in history.<br /><br />Once again you are making things up to try to prove your erroneous conclusions.<br /><br />Rick<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Sirrowsalot+Feb 23 2005, 09:44 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Feb 23 2005, 09:44 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it humorous that you with nothing to say have to act like a crybaby instead of just getting out there and rowing and improving your fitness. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />PATT compare you to other fifties lightweights, and "elite" fifty year old men are on the average much less fit (and much less strong) than elite open rowers. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Oh I would say that I am not only fitter than you, I am also "stronger" than you, for my age.<br /><br />For example, my 2k PATT is higher than yours, and my 10k PATT is astronomically faster than yours.<br /><br />Not only that but I work out an average of more than 2 hours a day, which is about 6 TIMES as much as you do. Rich Cureton probably spends more time working out than I do. Rod Freed has (historically) worked out much more than you and far more intensely. Additionally there are many 60+ rowers who work out much more and are much more fit than you are.<br /><br />This applies not only to fitness but to life.<br /><br />If only I could be cloned, there would be a lot more happy women in the world.

[[old] John Rupp]

I want to also make the point that Clarke was not a 1500 meter or 2000 meter competitor.<br /><br />This discussion is really about the fitness and endurance of 1500 meter runners and 2k rowers.<br /><br />Comparatively, World Record 1500 meter runner El G of Morocco is also the Olympic and World champion at the 5000 meters event.

[[old] John Rupp]

Bayko,<br /><br />Zatopek was always a first class runner as well as a first class human being.<br /><br />I agree with Zatopek that Clarke certain did deserve an Olympic Gold Medal.<br /><br />It would have been nice if he could have earned one as well.<br /><br />As to Clarke being a "'fraidy cat", perhaps you also don't know that Clarke lobbied heavily to not have the games in Mexico City, "because" of the altitude.<br /><br />Then he spent the entire 4 years preceeding complaining about how difficult it was going to be and that all the sea level athletes were going to "suffer".<br /><br />It is not surprising at all that he did not do well.<br /><br />Again, Mohammed Gamoudi, a frequent competitor of Clarke's, and who grew up, lived and trained at sea level, won the Olympic Gold Medal for the 5000 meters at Mexico City.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 10:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 10:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh I would say that I am not only fitter than you, I am also "stronger" than you, for my age.<br /><br />For example, my 2k PATT is higher than yours, and my 10k PATT is astronomically faster than yours.<br /><br />Not only that but I work out an average of more than 2 hours a day, which is about 6 TIMES as much as you do.  Rich Cureton probably spends more time working out than I do.  Rod Freed has (historically) worked out much more than you and far more intensely.  Additionally there are many 60+ rowers who work out much more and are much more fit than you are.<br /><br />This applies not only to fitness but to life.<br /><br />If only I could be cloned, there would be a lot more happy women in the world. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Look out, she's getting ready to blow!<br /><br />PS - You meant to say "clowned" there at the end didn't you?

[[old] Bayko]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 07:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 07:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I want to also make the point that Clarke was not 1500 meter or 2000 meter competitor.<br /><br />This discussion is really about the fitness and endurance of 1500 meter runners and 2k rowers.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />No John, you're not getting off the hook this time by changing the subject as you usually do when shown to be wrong, you deceitful person you.<br /><br />Some of your own quotes from this thread, prior to my post:<br /><br />"Running times are FASTER at altitude up to 800 meters, and close for distances beyond that, for example 10000 meters, and 30 kilometers etc."<br /><br />"For example, top Kenyan runners have 10k times at altitude that are within 20 to 30 seconds of their times at sea level. This means a fit runner's time for the 2k would be less than 3-4 seconds difference at altitude than at sea level."<br /><br />"Now if you take a 10k runner who is not fit, then an average person who is least fit, the percentage from sea level times will become greater and greater.<br />Increased fitness has the benefit of neutralizing most of the decreased availability of oxygen, while extending the distance of the more advantageous component."<br /><br />"It is to be expected that those having a hard time rowing a 10k at sea level would have a much harder time at altitude because their fitness is lacking.<br />The greater the disparity in fitness, the greater the difference and disadvantage at altitude.<br />Only with excellent fitness is it possible to make the most of the benefits of the lesser air pressure on the fan. "<br /><br />"Yes, provided the athlete/s were well trained aerobically, meaning 10k no slower than 2k pace + 5 or so. There is a huge variation of aerobic fitness among rowers. Those who are less fit will of course have less capability to use oxygen at altitude and thus this will be a major factor for them to overcome. For example for those who have a tough time with a 10k at 2k +10 at sea level are going to have a hard time with a 2k at altitude."<br /><br />Rick<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] c2bill]

this topic has been viewed an amazing 2000+ times. as i have said before there is no such thing as bad pr nor a bad thread (from my view point <br /><br />one thing i would like to mention - each of you has the ability to 'ignore' any other user of this forum. Don't like an individual's post - simply click on the name of the individual next to a post - and select 'ignore'. From that point on you won't see posts - won't rec. PM's etc etc.<br /><br />ignorace is bliss in the world of public un-moderated forums.<br /><br />enjoy.<br /><br />-bill

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2bill+Feb 23 2005, 02:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2bill @ Feb 23 2005, 02:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this topic has been viewed an amazing 2000+ times. as i have said before there is no such thing as bad pr nor a bad thread (from my view point <br /><br />one thing i would like to mention - each of you has the ability to 'ignore' any other user of this forum. Don't like an individual's post - simply click on the name of the individual next to a post - and select 'ignore'. From that point on you won't see posts - won't rec. PM's etc etc.<br /><br />ignorace is bliss in the world of public un-moderated forums.<br /><br />enjoy.<br /><br />-bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, but where's the button to let you ignore the message that says "un-ignore this post"?

[[old] Andreas]

Hi John<br /><br />I have not visit this topic before, but reading thru this, I realize that I can now IGNORE every thing you post before, because you obviosly dont know what you talking about. <br />Be sure I will also ignore your reply to this comment.<br /><br />Andreas

[[old] Sirrowsalot]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 01:56 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 01:56 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Sirrowsalot+Feb 23 2005, 09:44 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Feb 23 2005, 09:44 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 23 2005, 12:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it humorous that you with nothing to say have to act like a crybaby instead of just getting out there and rowing and improving your fitness. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />PATT compare you to other fifties lightweights, and "elite" fifty year old men are on the average much less fit (and much less strong) than elite open rowers. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Oh I would say that I am not only fitter than you, I am also "stronger" than you, for my age.<br /><br />For example, my 2k PATT is higher than yours, and my 10k PATT is astronomically faster than yours.<br /><br />Not only that but I work out an average of more than 2 hours a day, which is about 6 TIMES as much as you do. Rich Cureton probably spends more time working out than I do. Rod Freed has (historically) worked out much more than you and far more intensely. Additionally there are many 60+ rowers who work out much more and are much more fit than you are.<br /><br />This applies not only to fitness but to life.<br /><br />If only I could be cloned, there would be a lot more happy women in the world. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Haha, you're hilarious. Again, you've completely avoided my claim. I'm not talking about making silly adjustments for age. In an absolute sense (the only one that matters) I am much, much fitter and stronger than you. As I said, you may be stronger for an old man, congratulations. PATT is age-adjusted, as such it has no value in an absolute sense. Compare to me you're weak, pathetic, and slow. Undeniably. I should probably stop taking you seriously--no one else here does. You seem to be the big joke of the forum. Good work!<br />

[[old] Sir Pirate]

John, have to admire you my friend, you take a kicking day in and day out and still come back for more.<br />The census is that you arguments do not hold any water, yet you will defended your corner 100%.<br />Sometimes it takes a brave man to admit that he can sometimes be wrong.<br /><br />Best<br />Sir Pirate

[[old] DavidA]

All I can say, John, is that you certainly have no lack of confidence in your opinions.

[[old] DavidA]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2bill+Feb 23 2005, 02:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2bill @ Feb 23 2005, 02:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->one thing i would like to mention - each of you has the ability to 'ignore' any other user of this forum. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ah, what fun would that be?

[[old] John Rupp]

Rick,<br /><br />Yes all those quotes are indeed things that I have said and that I stand by 100%.<br /><br />There is nothing deceitful about this and everything I have said on this thread is completely out in the open and, as well, is completely verifiable.<br /><br />For example, I have several of Clarke's books, including his training and comments prior to and after Mexico City, and have met and talked with him personally.