Altitude And Air Resistance

[[old] PaulH]

John,<br /><br />Just read through the thread, and I didn't find the bit where you explain why the decrease in air resistance actually makes a difference. I can reduce the effective air pressure for the erg just by lowering the damper.<br /><br />Also, I'd be interested in the name of anyone who has actually erged faster at altitude than at sea level.<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] JimR]

<!--QuoteBegin-BigBuck+Feb 19 2005, 05:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(BigBuck @ Feb 19 2005, 05:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm reading Matthew Pinsent's (4 times Olympic Champion) autobiography at the moment.  In it he describes a training session at altitude of 2000m at Rate 20 for 30 minutes.  He describes how he can break 9000m at sea level but had never been able to achieve this at altitude.  He managed to do it and was really pleased because it is so difficult at altitude because (at 2000m) there is 7% less oxygen available.<br /><br />It's interesting to hear what an Olympic Champion says, and I'd really recommend reading the book to John Rupp.......... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm afraid it would not be enough for someone to read the book to John, they would have to explain it to him as well ... and keep it real simple too! He gets off in weeds pretty easily, as this thread shows <br /><br />JimR

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulH,<br /><br />As pointed out earlier, comparable times at altitude are dependent on the fitness of the rower.<br /><br />Lowering the drag reduces air flow but does not reduce the air pressure.

[[old] John Rupp]

Jim,<br /><br />Matthew Pinsent does not have the distance fitness to be able to row comparable times at altitude.<br /><br />As pointed out earlier in this thread, comparable times at altitude are dependent on the fitness of the rower.

[[old] John Rupp]

1) There are no world championships nor major rowing (on the erg) events held at altitude;<br /><br />2) World records are rare, in rowing, as it is;<br /><br />3) Rowers, in general, are afraid of rowing comparable times at altitude.<br /><br />This 3rd point is because you do need to be fit to row comparable times, and most rowers -- as compared to runners -- are not fit.<br /><br />Part of this lack of fitness of rowers is that, in general, they are not used to generating higher power over distance.<br /><br />Pinsent is a good example of this. He does most of his training at 20 spm. It is not surprising that he can not row comparable times at altitude.

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulH,<br /><br />The railing is the same length at altitude, the seat is the same height, the color of the erg is the same, the drag factor may or may not have the same effect.<br /><br />The air pressure at altitude is not the same.<br /><br />Cyclists are well aware of this. Before Eddy Merckx' record in 1972, cyclists were "also" quite afraid of going harder at altitude. Now all that has changed. All it took was one brave soul extending the limits of what people believed possible.<br /><br />Another brave soul, Kip Keino, smashed the 1500 meter Olympic Record with a 3:34.9 at altitude. No one thought that was possible but he proved that it was.<br /><br />It is noteworthy that Keino had already completed in the 10000 and 5000 meters, before the 1500 event. Thus he was a very fit runner. Jim Ryun, who was not capable of running even a good 5000, was not able to keep up with him.<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 20 2005, 09:17 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 20 2005, 09:17 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1)  There are no world championships nor major rowing (on the erg) events held at altitude;<br /><br />2)  World records are rare, in rowing, as it is;<br /><br />3)  Rowers, in general, are afraid of rowing comparable times at altitude.<br /><br />This 3rd point is because you do need to be fit to row comparable times, and most rowers -- as compared to runners -- are not fit.<br /><br />Part of this lack of fitness of rowers is that, in general, they are not used to generating higher power over distance.<br /><br />Pinsent is a good example of this.  He lollygags around at 20 spm and thinks that is something, then writes a book and those who can't think for themselves do the same. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />1) Wrong. There is a Major event in Denver, CO each year. "Mile High Sprints"<br /><br />2) Mostly wrong. There are new World Records virtually each year. With the small number of events each year, "rare" is relative.<br /><br />3) I can't even imagine how you could make this wild leap, but then I remind myself, "That's what you do!". <br /><br />That final bit is not worthy of a response, it's so wrong, anyone outside <b>Bizzarro World</b> has already dismissed it.<br /><br />Hey, maybe some of our UK Friends could answer this question, once Knighted does Sir Pinsent get a sword to deal with enemies of the sport?<br /><br />Running may come in handy after all. <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

1) Mile High Sprints are not a World Championship or equivalent meet;<br /><br />2) There are no World Record quality rowers who have competed at World Championship quality meets at altitude on a regular basis;<br /><br />3) Rowers, in general, are afraid of rowing comparable times at altitude.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 20 2005, 05:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 20 2005, 05:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now let's take a look at reality:<br /><br />1)  Mile High Sprints are not a World Championship or equivalent meet;<br /><br />2)  There are no World Record quality rowers who have competed at World Championship quality meets at altitude on a regular basis;<br /><br />3)  Rowers, in general, are afraid of rowing comparable times at altitude. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Where did you come up with this assumption of other peoples "fear"? That's pretty funny stuff. Transference would be the appropriate description to give to your Dr. to let them know what you have been up to over the w/e.<br /><br />Get well soon.<br /><br />You still manage to Quack me up! Thanks...

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 19 2005, 07:06 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 19 2005, 07:06 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think I've even done a 10k in 2 years, and never for best time possible, i'm not into suffering for that long.)  </td></tr></table><br />That's a good example of fear.

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 21 2005, 01:26 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 21 2005, 01:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[Edited because I don't want to see this here any longer]-Steve_R[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have got to say this is out of control. As much as I try to ignore personal attacks, this is just too far. I don't care what philosophical differences are between you two.<br /><br />Bad form, John

[[old] John Rupp]

Steve,<br /><br />I agree that sticking to topic would be best.

[[old] R S T]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 19 2005, 02:08 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 19 2005, 02:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />It's a short month, you should not have run out of meds yet.<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 20 2005, 11:48 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 20 2005, 11:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulH,<br /><br />Silly boy -- I'm not responsible for your fitness -- or lack thereof.<br /><br />Lowering the drag reduces air flow but does not reduce the air pressure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I didn't claim you were responsible for my fitness, so I don't know what on earth you're referring to here. But please don't call me a 'silly boy', it's patronising and should be beneath you.<br /><br />The only thing the erg cares about is air flow within the cage - within the levels that can be achieved on earth the change in air pressure is irrelevant, because the same effect can be achieved just by changing the damper setting. Again, why exactly does this make a difference? I understand the difference for runners and cyclists, because they are having to move their bodies through less air, but that's a negligible factor for rowers.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 20 2005, 10:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 20 2005, 10:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 19 2005, 07:06 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 19 2005, 07:06 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think I've even done a 10k in 2 years, and never for best time possible, i'm not into suffering for that long.)   </td></tr></table><br />Not an assumption, Paul, an observation.<br /><br />I don't take any meds and don't need them, but your personal attacks rather then sticking to topic make me wonder very seriously about you. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'll repeat it for you John, Transference, it's harmless to all but yourself, so truly, you would only be helping yourself by seeking some help. Being a Life Coach and all, shouldn't there be some sort of peer support you could engage in? Lashing out at others in this forum is getting pretty tired. I know you are feeling picked on, but you started it, and so far everyone (except you) has been relatively civil and good natured.<br /><br />What made you turn so nasty? Even we, initially had nice forum and email exchanges, but somewhere along the line it was as if you migrated over to another world where all you could do was attack, and that will never make much progress against me or others. Maybe you will have to hit rock bottom before bouncing back up, I can only hope that time is close, you were much more fun when you engaged in productive discussions.<br />