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Citroen
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Post by Citroen » March 24th, 2006, 6:19 pm

John Rupp wrote:
Citroen wrote:a partner at libel specialists Carter-Fuck, said ... What a shame that Concept2 and ipbhost.com have pulled the plug on the old forum.
Fortunately I have saved pictures, that Carter-Fuck would be proud of. :P
Tough shit, you've wasted your time. Carter-Fuck died a few years back. All that remains is his chambers.

I refer you to the well known publication Private Eye http://www.private-eye.co.uk they've been refering to the Late Peter Carter-Fuck by that name for the last twenty years. They have yet to be sued by him (which is now impossible since to old duffer has snuffed it) or his remaining members of his chambers for that as any form of libel.

They have been sued by a few unsavoury gits during the years. Most notable was them being sued in Scotland by Cap'n Bob Maxwell MC (dec'd). In Scotland you have to state to the court what you think your reputation is worth. Cap'n Bob said £100,000. The court reduced that to £10,000 as he had no reputation worth fighting about.

Private Eye was sued for £600,000 - the infamous Bananaballs case. "If that's justice, I'm a banana", said Hislop, The Editor. That was my only encounter with Libel law - I gave a £10 donation to Private Eye's fighting fund.

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johnlvs2run
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Post by johnlvs2run » March 24th, 2006, 6:42 pm

Citroen wrote:Tough shit, you've wasted your time. Carter-Fuck died a few years back. All that remains is his chambers.
Are you saying that Carter-Fuck doffed. :cry:
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

TomR
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Post by TomR » March 24th, 2006, 6:44 pm

Sir Pie-rat

It was a London jury that convicted Vanity Fair of libeling Roman Polansky. As Vanity Fair asked, how can you libel a man w/ no reputation to begin w/? Only in England.

When Dickens wrote, "The law is an ass," he was talking about law as practiced by your bewigged barristers.

Tom

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Sir P
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Post by Sir P » March 24th, 2006, 7:16 pm

Our justice system works arse about face over here, do something extremely bad like kill someone and you can walk free after a few months inside, rip the Tax man of for a couple of grand and you go down for a 10 stretch!!

TomR, you are probably right, are laws are terrible over here, I think it is your lawyers that have a bad reputation over there, well, viewed by people in the U.K that way.

Sir P
1609m - 5:07.3, 2000m - 6:24.0
3000m - 9:58.4, 5000m - 17:03.7
6000m - 20:44.2, 10000m - 35:42.8
21097m - 1hr 17mins 28.2secs

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John Foy
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Post by John Foy » March 24th, 2006, 7:44 pm

Sir Pie-rat
Classic :D That will be your new nickname from now on Sir P :D

cbrock
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Post by cbrock » March 24th, 2006, 8:03 pm

I continue to be amazed by Dwayne's lack of response to all this rubbish.

Having put himself out in the Public Arena as the "World's Greatest 40+ Erger" he allows himself to be belittled by all and sundry.

If I had been called that many times by others who continually question my credibility, people would have been trampled in the rush as I headed to the nearest sanctioned rowing meet.

Looking those guys in the face at competition time and posting a time in keeping with my "extraordinary claims" would be the something to share with my band of true believers who no doubt have suffered with me for so long.

Maybe it's that dreaded "Walter Mitty" virus that makes people believe that dreams do come true!

Chris

seat5
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Post by seat5 » March 25th, 2006, 2:36 am

Daren, as I have said before I have seen the proof that Dwayne is indeed a fake, this proof however can not be made public for various reasons. I would love nothing more than to be able to publish it but have to take the 3rd parties wishes into account.
If you are protecting someone by not making this public, you must be protecting someone who is as guilty of some sort of cheating behaviour as you claim Dwayne is. Why would you care about the wishes of such a person? Come on, out with it. At least give us the basic scenario without naming names or something. Dwayne already gave you the go ahead. He's not afraid of your "proof."

I still respect and believe in the times Dwayne has posted. Go ahead and make smarmy remarks about loyalty--I don't care. I'll never believe any time you ever post, unless it's a race time, since you clearly know how to fake even "ind_v" times--not that you care what I think one way or the other. In my opinion, you have totally destroyed your own credibility.

If your real concern from the beginning was making sure the rankings can't be faked this could have been accomplished without attacking anyone. You could have done it merely by doing what you did (however you did that) last weekend. You could have done that a month ago and helped to solve the ranking problem sooner and in a much classier way.

I'm really bummed out that it's possible to mess around with the IND_V verification code somehow--I am hoping that it wasn't the PM3 software that you messed with, but somehow the witnessing end of things. If the PM3 software wasn't the way you did it, I believe C2 will change things so that the verification data that shows up in the rankings will indicate whether it was a PM3 code or human witness or what. If you did somehow crack the PM3 software, I hope they can fix it, because I really liked being able to use that. It was my best Christmas present this year, and congratulations, you've wrecked it!
Carla Stein--F 47 HWT

[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1193870739.png[/img]

Daren
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Post by Daren » March 25th, 2006, 1:25 pm

seat5 wrote:I'm really bummed out that it's possible to mess around with the IND_V verification code somehow--I am hoping that it wasn't the PM3 software that you messed with, but somehow the witnessing end of things.
My understanding is that it was a relay conducted last weekend at the South London IRC event. No fiddling with the PM3 itself, nor any manipulation of the hardware or software. Just 5 people and some fast changeovers.

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andyArvid
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Post by andyArvid » March 26th, 2006, 12:11 pm

Citroen wrote: If the verification code is encrypted with DES, there's an awful lot of keyspace to search and I doubt Chad has any access to the kind of supercomputer to crack it quickly.
.....
We know that the 16 hex chars of the verification code holds date, distance and workout time. So we have the cleartext.

03/18/2006 2000m 5:44.9

Chad clearly has the verification key generated by the PM3 (which I'll assume is the ciphertext encrypted with a public key).
.....
What we don't have is the private key (which must be held by C2 for their website and must be stored in the PM3 firmware). If the private key is compromised all bets are off. C2 will have a definite problem changing their private key if it's held in firmware (which is unlikely). They'd have a job - but less of a job if the public key is compromised - you can generate a new public key - you can publish public keys without compromising the system.

So your suggestion doesn't really hold water. I doubt the verification system has been cracked.
As a purely theoretical reply (I am not accusing anyone or supposing anyone has done this.) But Citroen your analysis does not hold water. The PM3 is a closed box. The (only) input is the strokes of the rower(s). The output is a verification code. There is no public/private key to change the encryption. Ok there could be one but it must be fixed. Hence the discussion of public/private key is moot.

Ok so as long as the box (pm3) is closed I agree with you that it would be difficult to generate a fake verification code. Now lets open that box. To simplify things we would have a processor, an eeprom (firmware) and a sensor. (I am not sure of this, I have never seen a PM3, nor have opened my PM2+) Now this is the weakness. There would be several ways to cheat.

1. Manipulate the input to the sensor, such as increasing the signal (gain) electronically.
2. Reverse assemble the firmware, modify it and place it back in the EEPROM. Here, one could change how the PM3 processes each stroke.

In both of these cases, the rower could actually be rowing a pace of 1:30/500m and the PM3 will interpret it as a 1:25 pace.

3. Upload the firmware to a simulator or emulator. Find in the code where it generates the encrypted string and the contents of the string. Create your own string and simulate the encryption. You don't need to understand or break the encryption. It is just a function, input cleartext -> output encrypted text.

Now, I know all three are possible because over ten years ago I worked on embedded systems and have done all three (though not on a PM3 but on communication systems and medical devices).

The only caveat would be that C2 may use an encrypted eeprom which would probably make (2) and (3) very unlikely. This may be more common now but in the past encrypted eproms were common only in military systems

Remember this is purely an academic digression, I am not accusing anyone of doing this nor implying that anyone has done this.

andy
andy m44y 78kg(172lbs) 1.76m(5'9") see [url=http://andyarvid.infogami.com/exercise_log]my training log[/url] or [url=http://decenturl.com/spreadsheets.google/andys-exercise-log]spreadsheet training log[/url]

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hjs
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Post by hjs » March 26th, 2006, 1:15 pm

andyArvid wrote:
Citroen wrote: If the verification code is encrypted with DES, there's an awful lot of keyspace to search and I doubt Chad has any access to the kind of supercomputer to crack it quickly.
.....
We know that the 16 hex chars of the verification code holds date, distance and workout time. So we have the cleartext.

03/18/2006 2000m 5:44.9

Chad clearly has the verification key generated by the PM3 (which I'll assume is the ciphertext encrypted with a public key).
.....
What we don't have is the private key (which must be held by C2 for their website and must be stored in the PM3 firmware). If the private key is compromised all bets are off. C2 will have a definite problem changing their private key if it's held in firmware (which is unlikely). They'd have a job - but less of a job if the public key is compromised - you can generate a new public key - you can publish public keys without compromising the system.

So your suggestion doesn't really hold water. I doubt the verification system has been cracked.
As a purely theoretical reply (I am not accusing anyone or supposing anyone has done this.) But Citroen your analysis does not hold water. The PM3 is a closed box. The (only) input is the strokes of the rower(s). The output is a verification code. There is no public/private key to change the encryption. Ok there could be one but it must be fixed. Hence the discussion of public/private key is moot.

Ok so as long as the box (pm3) is closed I agree with you that it would be difficult to generate a fake verification code. Now lets open that box. To simplify things we would have a processor, an eeprom (firmware) and a sensor. (I am not sure of this, I have never seen a PM3, nor have opened my PM2+) Now this is the weakness. There would be several ways to cheat.

1. Manipulate the input to the sensor, such as increasing the signal (gain) electronically.
2. Reverse assemble the firmware, modify it and place it back in the EEPROM. Here, one could change how the PM3 processes each stroke.

In both of these cases, the rower could actually be rowing a pace of 1:30/500m and the PM3 will interpret it as a 1:25 pace.

3. Upload the firmware to a simulator or emulator. Find in the code where it generates the encrypted string and the contents of the string. Create your own string and simulate the encryption. You don't need to understand or break the encryption. It is just a function, input cleartext -> output encrypted text.

Now, I know all three are possible because over ten years ago I worked on embedded systems and have done all three (though not on a PM3 but on communication systems and medical devices).

The only caveat would be that C2 may use an encrypted eeprom which would probably make (2) and (3) very unlikely. This may be more common now but in the past encrypted eproms were common only in military systems

Remember this is purely an academic digression, I am not accusing anyone of doing this nor implying that anyone has done this.

andy
But if someone simply rows a race at around a certain level all this is not much relevant :D Everybody knowns what that person is capable off.

And almost everybody high in the rankings does race. So no one questions there performances.
Live can be so simple :D

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John Foy
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Post by John Foy » March 29th, 2006, 5:42 pm

Has anybody contacted the USIRT officials about this? Has anybody actually asked them if Dwayne did a witnessed 2k?

Does anybody have the contact details for the USIRT officials?

John

TomR
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Post by TomR » March 29th, 2006, 8:13 pm

John Foy wrote:Has anybody contacted the USIRT officials about this? Has anybody actually asked them if Dwayne did a witnessed 2k?

Does anybody have the contact details for the USIRT officials?

John
Yes. See my post on the UK site in response to your question there.

gcanyon
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Post by gcanyon » March 29th, 2006, 9:46 pm

TomR wrote:
John Foy wrote:Has anybody contacted the USIRT officials about this? Has anybody actually asked them if Dwayne did a witnessed 2k?

Does anybody have the contact details for the USIRT officials?

John
Yes. See my post on the UK site in response to your question there.
Where on the UK forums is it?

TomR
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Post by TomR » March 29th, 2006, 11:11 pm

Here's the post:

I contacted the witness and posted his email on the original Chad thread. I gave the witness' contact info to another Forumite, who got a more detailed account and posted it. Like that of some eyewitnesses in criminal trials, the man's evidence did not end all doubt.

Tom

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michaelb
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Post by michaelb » March 29th, 2006, 11:24 pm

I am supposed to be getting some work done, and here I am searching old forum posts.

These are the two relevant posts on the witnessing, the first from TomR, the second from NavHaz:

In an earlier post, Dwayne named one witness, saying he worked for Sykes Rowing. So I went to the Sykes web site, got an email contact name for the N. Am. office in PA and wrote a note asking whether a Mr. Gallagher from Sykes had ever witnessed Dwayne row a 2k. This evening I got the following email back from Sykes.

"GDay Tom:

I'd be happy to help. I think I have administered two tests on Dwayne, if not three. I am not a big ergo fanatic and so I do not remember ntimes, but I can say that I honestly submitted that time which was on the machine to C2 for qualification. I recall that both scores were superb, but obviously the last one was the faster of the two (it was one or two years after the first test, and I don't remember the dates). I know there is a cloud over Dwayne's performance given that he has not performed as well at the ergo competitions, but given what I have seen every time he has sat on the ergo, I wasn't surprised by either score.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Tom"

Tom
I'm going to hate myself for reneging on my vow not to post in this thread.

From what I've been able to glean in 5 minutes on the Net, Tom Gallagher lives in Philadelphia and winters in Arizona, where (far from knowing nothing about rowing) he has been past captain of the Rio Salado Rowing Club in Tempe. He is a LW, or at least was so in 2003 when he won the 2003 USRowing Southwest Regional Masters Championships in a LW 4x with (among others) Dennis Hastings.

I have no idea whether or not he had a connection to the US IRT when Dwayne rowed his piece, but he may well have been a US Rowing referee or some such.

Mr. Gallagher also has been the US rep for Sykes Racing -- an Australian company that makes racing shells -- for a number of years. That anyone would think him complicit in some alleged conspiracy, or gullible enough to be duped into linking his good name and presumably his commercial reputation to some alleged fraud boggles my mind.

This time I really am going to cease posting.
http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... st&p=51683
[warning, the old forum may be infected with malicious code]
M 51 5'9'' (1.75m), a once and future lightweight
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