Sprint Finishes

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 6th, 2004, 4:36 am

We recently have a new world champion from NZ a lady by the name of Sarah Ulmer who won the world 3k track pursuit in cycling. In her heats she set a new world record and it was interesting listening to her talking about it afterwards. A bit like a 2k race it is in many respects an individual time trial given the title of a race and the fastest person on time wins. (For those who dont know this race the 2 riders start on opposite sides of the velodrome and race over 3000m). Sarah says she races her own race, knows what she is capable of and rides each lap within .01/.02 from start to finish (not including the 1st which of course is from a standing start). Her support people advise her of her splits but apart form that the other person may as well not be there. What mattered to me was her comment that she does not have anything left at the end of the race (as you would expect) but also that she does not have a kick of any significance at the end as she feels that to be able to do so may well mean that she could have gone quicker earlier. In most 2k's we go quick for the first 7-8 strokes (anerobic) and then settle and seek to hold a pace (AT) and then maybe sprint at the end (anerobic). After all that my question or comment is this. Some people say they go for the sprint with 200 to go, I ususally wait till the last 100. Some even wind it up over the last 500 to some degree. I am thinking that if you are able to throw in 20 or more strokes at the end significantly (say more than 2 secs/500) below what you have done up till then, then just maybe you did not go hard enough earlier?

[old] Pete Marston · Post by **[old] Pete Marston** » June 6th, 2004, 7:30 am

The difference between erging and cycling is that in erging you can change the dynamics of the stroke to make the numbers on the monitor lower at the end of a 2k, and I can't think of any comparible way of doing that in a cycling race. I always try to do a sprint finish in a 2k, when I did my pb I was hitting 1:26's for most of the last 100m or so. But to me this doesn't mean I necessarily could have gone faster before, because I'm doing that by shortening my stroke a little, and cutting right down on the recovery time between strokes, and I can't keep that up for long, but timed right it allows me to go a fair bit faster for a short time. Pete

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » June 6th, 2004, 11:59 am

When I'm out on my bike, I can wind it up at the end of a 25 mile ride, same as at the end of a 2k... You can keep it even, good during the race, but it seems silly to not try and get total oxygen debt and lactate as you cross the line. I've tried even splitting and it is slower (for me) but might not be for everyone. The first 500 is usually a bit faster (due to the fast first 70m at the start), then it is even (hopefully) until 1800m. I've tried doing a 2k at the average split for my PB all the way and I fade after 1500m and end up slower. Instead I aim to be averaging 1-1.5 secs/500 slower than i need at 1500m, as I know that I can then get 3-6 secs back in the last 200m.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 6th, 2004, 12:31 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Cran @ Jun 6 2004, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> as I know that I can then get 3-6 secs back in the last 200m.  </td></tr></table> 3-6 secs in the last 200m?!?! Seems like too much to make up in 200m. Must be one heck of a sprint finish. Lots of difference of opinion on finishing sprints. I'm of the opinion that if you have a sprint finish you didn't have enough mental discpline to push it during the race. Putting it on the line during the body of a race is difficult to do. You have to be fortunate enough to know exactly how you feel that day and pace accordingly from the beginning. Not something that is easily done everytime. Plus you have to push past the point where you question whether you're going to finish at this pace. If you decide to hold back, so you can be assured of finishing, you often end up having enough left for that sprint. It takes good training of your body AND your mind and some luck to race that properly paced race. I think a properly paced race has slight negative splits without a sprint at the end. In some cases, what looks like a sprint, speeding up the SR, is really only an attempt to maintain pace as you start to lose it at the end. It's not really a sprint because your pace doesn't speed up at all. Sometimes it even drops. What it comes down to is what do you like to do. Some like even splits. Others like big sprints. Which is better can be argued all day and has been.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » June 6th, 2004, 2:13 pm

When I row a marathon, I usually start my final sprint with about 4K remaining. In a 2K, I don't start my final sprint until much closer to the finish line. I think a lot of it has to do with knowing how hard you can go with the distance remaining and being able to put the most into the remaining distance. When I won BIRC 2001, my final sprint started about 700m out. This was my best race ever. I did a time trial a year later to qualify for a return trip to BIRC. I held even splits from start to finish for that effort and went 0.5 seconds faster. (Of course, there was no adrenaline rush that BIRC provides either.) Cheers, Paul Flack

[old] Xavier · Post by **[old] Xavier** » June 6th, 2004, 7:07 pm

When I set my 2k PB, it was the week before the Nottingham Grand Prix final back in 2003. I rowed 1:37s and 1:38s the whole way through, with no sprint at the end. When I finished I stood straight up and legged it downstairs to tell our coach. The next weekend in the race I did the classic "Start fast, get a bit slower, and ... er ... end a bit fast." Not only did I pull 0.1 sec slower than the previous week (even in race conditions - heading for gold), but I was lain out on the floor for about 10 minutes afterwards unable to move, let alone hop down three flights of stairs in glee. Over the past year, I've been sprinting from 350m out (count down 35 in your head, and then count down about 8 or so) - but a lot of the races haven't been splitted particularly well from start to finish. Fastest so far is 2 sec slower than my PB. A flat split is the best way to go. Maybe a tiny rise at the end (ie. going slower), to show that you really couldn't go any faster at all in any way humanly possible. If you do do a sprint finish, and end with a stroke that is below your average split, then you should have started sprinting one stroke earlier. 'Nuff said. Xav

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » June 6th, 2004, 7:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Seems like too much to make up in 200m. Must be one heck of a sprint finish </td></tr></table> Here's some replays from last year: 2K: (2nd 2K of the day) <a href='http://www.matrix.uk.net/files/ScottishRace10Replay.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.matrix.uk.net/files/Scottish ... Sprint last 200m I'm #9 I started ok at 1:42, but in the middle of the race I was struggling to hold 1:45 splits, I even did 300m with no legs, yet the final average was still 1:42.3 and I hit 1:30 in the sprint. 1K: (2nd 1K and 4th race of day) Sprint last 150m I'm #4. <a href='http://www.matrix.uk.net/files/ScottishRace19Replay.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.matrix.uk.net/files/Scottish ... > There is no way I could have held 1:38.4 all the way through. I do agree that this doesn't work for everyone, but it seems to work for me. I can just unload everything in the last 200m.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 6th, 2004, 8:02 pm

Andy, Thanks for the interesting links to the replays. It's obvious you hold something in reserve to be able to finish with a big sprint. Like you say it works for you but that's because that's how you like to do it. With some different training and a bit of a mental adjustment you would use a different race strategy and be much faster.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 6th, 2004, 8:41 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Xavier @ Jun 7 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> A flat split is the best way to go. Maybe a tiny rise at the end (ie. going slower), to show that you really couldn't go any faster at all in any way humanly possible. If you do do a sprint finish, and end with a stroke that is below your average split, then you should have started sprinting one stroke earlier. 'Nuff said. Xav  </td></tr></table> Xav you have summed up how I feel. Each time I have ended any distance with a sprint and HELD that sprint to the finish I always always always feel I should have 'gone' sooner and therefore did not get a fastest possible time and felt in someway deflated. If I am going to go over the red line in the last 10/15 strokes then I want to be dead with 2 to go and slowing down and THEN I will know there was nothing left.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 6th, 2004, 9:11 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Canoeist @ Jun 6 2004, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I usually start my final sprint with about 4K remaining. ....my final sprint started about 700m out.  </td></tr></table> Maybe we have different definitions of what is a sprint, but nobody sprints the last 4K of a marathon. Even a 4K itself can't be sprinted. It's physically impossible. I would guess what you are calling a sprint is just a substantial negative split planned race with the latter part of the race being at a much faster pace than the prior parts. I also don't think it's physically possible to sprint 700m and most definitely not at the end of a 2k race. Unless you are really holding back one would be unusual to be able to hold what I would call a true sprint finish for much more than 30-45 secs.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 6th, 2004, 9:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If I am going to go over the red line in the last 10/15 strokes then I want to be dead with 2 to go and slowing down and THEN I will know there was nothing left.  </td></tr></table> I've done a few 500's being *gone* before the finish and it's absolutely no fun at all! My fastest 500m was at a dead even pace all the way. Longer sprints tend to suit me much better too. It might be a matter of sematics, but I like applying the buildup to the entire distance, and usually consider the sprint to be the last 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5 of the distance. There's really no point to saving a lot of energy for the last 200 meters, although it's nice to try and take it in hard if there is anything left at that point.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 6th, 2004, 9:58 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 6 2004, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> It might be a matter of sematics, but I like applying the buildup to the entire distance, and usually consider the sprint to be the last 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5 of the distance.  </td></tr></table> Maybe this is my track background, but sprinting means just that...sprinting. A build up over the entire distance or even just the last 100/200/500 distance is not a finishing sprint. It's a...ah...build up? For the sake of discussion what do you all consider a sprint finish? My opinion is it's not a sprint unless you drop your pace, I would think...hmmm...about 5 secs or more. Now that's a sprint finish. Try holding that pace increase for the last 500/700 meters of a 2K! If you can, you didn't pace yourself correctly in the first part.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » June 6th, 2004, 11:30 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Rogus @ Jun 7 2004, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Canoeist @ Jun 6 2004, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I usually start my final sprint with about 4K remaining. ....my final sprint started about 700m out.  </td></tr></table> Maybe we have different definitions of what is a sprint, but nobody sprints the last 4K of a marathon. Even a 4K itself can't be sprinted. It's physically impossible. I would guess what you are calling a sprint is just a substantial negative split planned race with the latter part of the race being at a much faster pace than the prior parts. I also don't think it's physically possible to sprint 700m and most definitely not at the end of a 2k race. Unless you are really holding back one would be unusual to be able to hold what I would call a true sprint finish for much more than 30-45 secs. </td></tr></table> When I see the light at the end of the tunnel during a marathon, I pick up the pace quite a bit. I drop from a 1:50 pace to around a 1:46 pace for the last 4K. The BIRC race was purely adrenaline at the end. I was in tenth place and wanted to be third so bad that I ended up winning. My average pace was around 1:37 for the first 1,300m and then around 1:34 for the last 700m. The last 700m was a fairly constant 1:34 with a little die in the last three strokes because they were mostly done with arms. I agree that these are not typical examples of all out sprints. These examples are more a pick up in pace at the end to expend every last bit of energy to go faster. Cheers, Paul Flack

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 6th, 2004, 11:40 pm

Rogus, Being a track runner you would know that the so called sprint finishes of dropping the pace substantially, are only relevant when the pace has been lagging. Multi world record holder Haile Gebrselassie has an outstanding sprint finish, when the pace is slower than his capabilities. However in his WR runs, there has been very little pick up at the end, if any, as he has expended his "sprint" finish over the entirety of the distance. The same for Kennisia Bekele, who just took 2 seconds off Gebrselassie's WR for 5000 meters. So my definition is different than yours, in that at slow races you can pick up the pace quite a bit at the end. However, extending yourself through the distance comes from extending the sprint through the entirely of the distance, and not just at the last few meters at the ending.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 7th, 2004, 1:08 am

Ok seeing as I asked the question I would define a sprint as not just picking up the pace by a few seconds from where your at but by being significantly under your race 'FINISH' average split. Holding 1:37's then getting to the last 300 and rowing 1:34/35 is picking up the pace thru application of effort, it is rolling over your opposition and is a result of being fitter .... getting to the last 150 and pulling 1:32's and blowing them away thru sheer bloody minded 'grunt' is sprinting. If you have that ability to 'grunt' it for 300m or more you have held back and maybe just maybe could have gone quicker overall.

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