POLL - Should Challenge/Honor Board leaders verify mileage?

[Bob S.]

You think exactly the same way that I do but sadly we appear to be in the vast minority as the general indoor rower thinks being able to easily cheat you way through life is perfectly acceptable these days.

That's a pretty strong statement to make about the many of us that just don't think that the Challenge/Honor Board is a big enough deal to be concerned about. That does not mean that we condone cheating. For myself, I feel sorry for those who cheat on their indoor rowing scores. They are cheating themselves more than anyone else and I find that pathetic. I suspect that there might also be fake scores that are someone's idea of humor. That is not so much pathetic as just plain mean. Cheating in general is another matter, but in this specific case it is just petty and not worth making a fuss about in my view.

Bob S.

[joe80]

Knowing the levels of pain and exhaustion that plummy endured earlier this year to achieve his 1,000,000 metres record, it grieves me to view posts that appear to denigrate his efforts. All the ultra distance records may be found here:

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/r ... ion-meters

The conditions set out for verifying a record ensure that the performances are genuine.

Yes, the blue riband event is the 2km but it's not the be all and end all of erging or OTW rowing. For instance, the Oxford and Cambridge University rowers seem quite happy with their 4 mile course and there's no moves afoot to shorten the Henley course from its current 2,112 metres.

Regards,

Joe

[Bob S.]

CONCEPT2.gif

I'M NOT GOING MAD AFTER ALL . phew !!!

Sure, there are plenty of long distance team events, but what does that have to do with individual records? That's what this thread you started is all about, isn't it?

Bob S.

@ phlukke: A correction here and my apologies. Now that Joe has posted a link to the complete list, I see that it includes many individuals as well as a couple of teams. The screen shot on your post showed only the one team listed at the start. However, these well confirmed, public performances do not have much to do with this thread, i.e. about the Challenge/Honor Board, other than it clearly demonstrates that there are individuals who are capable of doing enormous numbers of meters on the erg. There may be cheaters on the board, but I am confident that the vast majority of the listings are legitimate.

I have to admit that I have never entered one of the challenges except as a member of a team. It is a rowing club team, so the members know each other well enough to know that their scores are legitimate. Since I have not signed up for individual challenges, I don't have much concern about possible cheating. I suppose that I might feel more strongly about if I got involved in in those challenges.

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

Yes you would Bob S, nothing personal but really this whole poll is for only those that compete in the challanges, otherwise your not going to care less. If I stop exporting my metres to the C2 website and no longer enter the challenges next year, from that point onwards I will not care less either.

I mean from a human emotion point of view you would feel pretty cheated if someone else took over one of you WR's and had no evidence of even rowing it wouldn't you ? perhaps some people out there feel the same way about the way the current Challenges are run.

Like others have allready pointed out the serious rowers just don't enter the challenges and from those RowPro rowers that are seriously quick that I have rowed with online and that have entered the team challenge are generally way down the leader board in terms of distance. The last Challange I did only two people in the top 10 rowed a single metre online so they had proven results.

Really it would be good for Concept 2 to run one just one Challenge a year for those that want to give it their all and gain a sense of genuine acheivement for their final placing. I would be the first person to signup for it every year. I found it a great experience rowing live with the other top 10 finisher on RowPro in the last one I did. You cannot beat that feeling at the end of a Challenge, it feels like standing on top of Everest.

[jamesg]

When is a challenge not a challenge? When it's a race. How can we possibly cheat when the challenge is to ourselves only? In racing one can cheat, by jumping the gun or sticking a lump of grease on an opponents skeg or any way we like. That's why there are rules in racing.

[hjs]

Knowing the levels of pain and exhaustion that plummy endured earlier this year to achieve his 1,000,000 metres record, it grieves me to view posts that appear to denigrate his efforts. All the ultra distance records may be found here:

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/r ... ion-meters

The conditions set out for verifying a record ensure that the performances are genuine.

Yes, the blue riband event is the 2km but it's not the be all and end all of erging or OTW rowing. For instance, the Oxford and Cambridge University rowers seem quite happy with their 4 mile course and there's no moves afoot to shorten the Henley course from its current 2,112 metres.

Regards,

Joe

Joe, its not about how much pain we suffer, often the winner is the one who does not suffer that much.
If some one pulls a pr and worked hard for that that is always a great accompliment, but that does not mean its a great performance. It only is when a talented athlete does.
Sports is about relative performances. Hard and cold, 99,99 % of us simply lack talent.
I simply dislike the current trend to make everybody a winner and a champ. We are not. The top of the piramide is very sharp.

But, like Carl said, its about the challenges

[Drivetofast]

SOOOOOO what you are saying is that Darlene,Anke,Alice etc,etc are cheating. Wow

[phlukke]

go away Richard. wind someone else up

[Carl Watts]

I think its important not to separate a race from the challenge.

Rob Weddels WR for the 2K was no harder for him than anyone else putting in 100% of their ability. 100% is 100% only the result is different because we are not all genetically gifted with the physiology required. The problem with the Challenge I guess ranges from people just uploaded their usual metres they row anyway to those really pushing their physical limits. The end result is two totally different opinions of whether the results should be verified or not, even from those entered.

Actually from experience the longer the distance the harder it is. The 2K WR is only 5:36 of pain, the FM I did was 1 hour of pain towards the end. For those doing the Ultra marathons I can only imagine what it must take both mentally and physically to make the finish. Rowing everyday for a whole month has a whole set of other challenges like not getting sick, not getting injured and putting the rowing at the top of the priority list . Some people these days cannot even find the time to do it so they are not even a starter.

I don't need to accuse any particular person of cheating, just start verifying the results and let them speak for themselves, pretty simple isn't it ?

[Bob S.]

@ phluke: Just what are you questioning with this thread? Don't you believe that there are people that can average that many meters a month? I am familiar with only three names here in the top 40. One of them is very well known, having done ultra-long distances in public. Another is noted for having posted a video of a record ultra-distant row. The third had some questionable activity a number of years ago and dropped out of sight for a while. Even in that third case, the individual is not making the kind of claims that raised a doubt about him in the past. It is my feeling that his data on the board is legitimate this time around.

It is obvious that there are indeed people who can and do average 15km a day and up. Do you believe that many of the top 40 are faking? I sincerely doubt it. I can easily believe that there might be a few, but I don't see any sign of complaint by the others on the list. They would be the ones most affected by cheaters in that bracket.

I agree with Carl that it would be nice if C2 would set up some additional verifiable events than just the public 2ks and somehow carry these out on line. But I don't have any feeling that there is a strong enough demand for that to convince C2 to go to the trouble. I suppose that it could be done with RowPro, as Carl suggested. So far I haven't heard of any suggestion that Digital Rowing is interested and the number of rowers using RP is limited. Also any kind of online competition can be gamed by using substitutes, lying about age/weight/gender, and using teams instead of individuals. Even at the big 2k comps, there is no check on age. The WRs, other than the 2k, have no check on the categories, just code verification for time/distance and witnesses that can verify that there isn't a substitute involved.

Do you have a specific complaint? Is there someone on the board ahead of you that you are suspicious about? How many of those top 40 do you suspect of cheating?

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

Thats probably the sad reality Bob S, even if there was a verified Challenge I think initially at least there would be very few who entered.

The more important question is however, is that a good or a bad sign ?

What would you take from it if many of the people at the top of the current system just failed to enter ?

What if a whole pile of new people actually came out of the woodwork and now decided to enter ?

Really the whole thing would be very interesting.

[Bob S.]

Thats probably the sad reality Bob S, even if there was a verified Challenge I think initially at least there would be very few who entered.

The more important question is however, is that a good or a bad sign ?

What would you take from it if many of the people at the top of the current system just failed to enter ?

What if a whole pile of new people actually came out of the woodwork and now decided to enter ?

Really the whole thing would be very interesting.

This is a strange coincidence. I was just looking through the archives and found that I actually have been entered and didn't even know it. I logged back on to the forum to post about it and the first thing I see is your post above with the highlighted question. Entering isn't a decision you can make. You are automatically entered if you have an online record.

I was looking through my own results and found that my highest year was the 2006 season and I had a virtual certificate that said I had done 2824+ Km for the season. The individual months are also available and my highest month was January of 2007 with a total of 419+ km, so I was averaging 13.5+ Km a day. Since I could do that at 82 years of age, I have no doubts about younger folks claiming 25km a day and up. (This season, at 89, pushing 90, it is a far different story.)

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

? You lost me Bob

Your not automatically entered into a challenge unless you sign up for a team and then you also have to sign up for the individual challenges to participate.

Your not automatically on the honors board either unless you resister and then you have to enter your rows or upload to the C2 website in some form. RowPro makes this the easiest by far to get a verified result as your already connected to a PC.

Only a tiny fraction of the number of people out there are even on the honor board, Concept 2 would know the number of rowers sold worldwide in the last 30 years so but I'm picking only about 1% of them out there have a user that is on the board. Most users don't even know the board exists.

This then leads to the obvious question. With so few people out there bothering with the board and about 10 people reading this, why am I wasting my time typing this ?

[Bob S.]

? You lost me Bob

Your not automatically entered into a challenge unless you sign up for a team and then you also have to sign up for the individual challenges to participate.

Your not automatically on the honors board either unless you resister and then you have to enter your rows or upload to the C2 website in some form. RowPro makes this the easiest by far to get a verified result as your already connected to a PC.

I have participated as a team member for a few fall and January challenges, but not every year for which there is a record. And I have never signed up for individual challenges. I also started a team that has never had any other members. The team was never in a challenge, of course, since the team challenges require at least 2 members in a team to enter.

Bob S.

[phlukke]

you can either react to this thread emotionally or logically.

Carl has obviously noticed statistical anomolies like I have.

If Concept still don't want to address that then I shall have to go over to RowPro.

But like Carl says , technology will eventually kill off the manual entry GENERATION