Protein Stuff

[old] Ben Rea · Post by **[old] Ben Rea** » March 3rd, 2006, 3:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(george nz @ Mar 2 2006, 10:49 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ben at your age, train lots, eat lots (especially complex carbs), lots of fruit and veges, and drink your milk and plenty of it; you will get all you need. Save your money for when you need it !!! George </td></tr></table> thanks for the advice

[old] slocheetah · Post by **[old] slocheetah** » March 3rd, 2006, 3:41 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(razorfizh @ Mar 3 2006, 09:23 AM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 1 2006, 07:26 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The average person needs .8 g per kg per day. Endurance training increase their protein needs to about 1 to 1.2 g per kg per day, well above the RDA. </td></tr></table> Can that be right? I weigh 100Kg - so i'd need 100-120 grams of protein every day! Looking at basic stuff I eat: Bread: 6 grams/slice (guess 6 pieces / day * 6 = 36) Yogurt: 2 grams/cup ... times 2 = 4 grams cereal: 5 grams incl. milk (times 2 servings) = 10 grams OJ/Gatoraide/etc: hardly anything . Tropicana=2, Gatorade=0 Add a healthy dinner in and sandwich fixings in with the bread I eat, perhaps I could account for another 30-40 grams - which barely makes it. Point is - if this is the RDA, then for some of us heavyweights, the typical diet just doesn't cover it. Its either we need to make a more conscious effort to pick more high protein foods, or supplement with protein drinks, right? Given this info, I'm certain that there are days I have where I don't make the 100 grams with my diet - and I am trying to eat healthy (and stay on a budget

Cheers, Troy </td></tr></table> Try calculating your protein intake based on your LEAN body mass.

[old] razorfizh · Post by **[old] razorfizh** » March 3rd, 2006, 3:53 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(slocheetah @ Mar 3 2006, 11:41 AM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Try calculating your protein intake based on your LEAN body mass. </td></tr></table> That would get it well within reach then ...

I'm 43 - LEAN is something of a work in progress ...

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 3rd, 2006, 8:51 pm

reading this thread.. shaking his head in disgust.... men eating soy... how unfortunate. 1. it's a shitty protein - really shitty - read here: I as a man, like having nice high-Testosterone levels - that is what makes us "men" in a biological sense - oh yeah, it's also a big factor in what keeps us looking younger.. 2. if you're not a vegan/vegetarian then why the h*** would you even waste your time with this crap? Unless being scrawny and weak are appealing to you that is... 3. A 100kg man only taking in 100-120g of protein a day? - yet more proof that those egghead nutritionists truly know nothing. All nose in the book not enough time in the playing fields on in the gym. Maybe if you're a sedentary couch slug - but even a moderately active person of that weight needs a lot more. Anyway, read on... PREMPTIVE NOTICE: All you soy advocates on this board - please don't bother flaming me. I don't really care if you eat soy or not. I do take offense to that crap being touted as the best thing since sliced bread when it truly isn't. So to those sitting on the fence whether to waste your money on this stuff here's a rather strong counterpoint. Decide for yourselves. ...... Soy is Still Bad Protein by Glen Neilson We first published an article about how soy protein is estrogenic, can lower Testosterone counts, and can even kill testicular cells in January of 2000. We then published new research on the matter in February of 2001. But you know something? The national media still won't touch the story. You can pick up the "Food" section of practically any local newspaper and see glowing reviews of the healthy attributes of soy protein, complete with yummy, Testosterone-lowering recipes. Given all that, we think that the topic deserves to be visited again and again until every man, woman, and child knows the truth. Hence this new article on soy. Oh, and make sure you read the letter that follows the article. It was written by two of the Food and Drug Administration's soy experts who attempted to stop FDA approval of soy. There's a lot of talk today about soy. Turn on the news and its soy, read a diet book and you'll find soy, go to your local gym and a personal trainer will recommend soy. What is it about soy that has captivated this nation? Well for starters it has many health benefits backed up by good science, it's inexpensive, it has a good track record in Asia, and the government has allowed a seal of approval to be stamped on food items that contain 6.25 grams of soy protein. Sounds like soy is a "can't miss" product, but is it? In this article we'll uncover the darker side of supposedly innocent soy and show you why you might not choose to include it in your otherwise healthy diet. Many papers have exhorted the benefits of soy, but as the saying goes "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" fits soy better than anything else you might imagine. Science has shown soy, more importantly its phyto-estrogen components, namely genistein, has the ability to attach to estrogen receptor sites and through transcription, act as female hormones such as estradiol. This, in some cases, can have benefits so it's not strange that soy would receive some well-deserved attention. The problem with this attention is that individuals who have no need of soy, and even some to which soy could be hazardous, have started using it. Science is now beginning to see what this "benign" protein can do, though. This review will cover the negative effects that soy protein may have on fetal development of both males and females, hormonal balance in males of a pre-mature and mature age, and efforts of weight training individuals trying to increase fat-free muscle mass. Studies will be included of human and non-human species, both immature and mature in age. Only abstracts and full-length articles from peer reviewed journals will be referenced in this paper. Literature Both abstracts and journals were found through the PubMed database and in the local university library. Limits were set on searches such as "human only," "male," "female," "abstract only," and others. Key words used included "soy," "soy protein," "genistein," as well as "Testosterone production," "effects on Testosterone," and others. Finally, studies or points in favor of soy were not included, as countless papers have been written on its positive effects. Findings The largest concern scientists have about soy are its effects on sexual development of infants consuming soy-based formula. The data is startling, yet most concerns have fallen on deaf ears. One study showed that when manufacturer-suggested amounts of soy formula are fed to infants, the infants ingest a daily dose of approximately 3 mg of total isoflavones (i.e. genistein and daidzein) per kg of body weight, which is maintained at a fairly constant level between 0 and 4 months of age.(3) Supplementing the diet of 4-month old infants with a single daily serving of soy-based cereal can increase their isoflavone intake by over 25%, depending on the brand chosen. This rate of isoflavone intake is much greater than that shown to alter reproductive hormones in adult humans. The available evidence suggests that infants can digest and absorb dietary phytoestrogens in active forms and neonates are generally more susceptible than adults to perturbations of the sex-steroid milieu. Another study assessed the effect of administering neonatal animals genistein in the amount of 4 mg per kg per day from days 2-18 of life.(1) Administration of genistein significantly retarded most measures of pubertal spermatogenesis. Plasma FSH levels in the treatment groups changed in parallel to the spermatogenic changes (reduced when pubertal spermatogenesis retarded, increased when pubertal spermatoenesis advanced). By day 25, the changes in FSH levels largely persisted. In adulthood, the animals that were fed a soy-free diet in infancy and on, had significantly larger testes than controls fed a soy-containing diet. Of the animals that had neonatal treatment with genistein, a minority did not mate or were infertile. In concluding this article, the authors stated "the presence or absence of soy or genistein in the diet has significant short-term (pubertal spermatogenesis) and long-term (body weight, testis size, FSH levels, and possibly mating) effects on males." The ugliness continues. The developing fetus is uniquely sensitive to perturbation with estrogenic chemicals. The carcinogenic effect of prenatal exposure to diethylstilbestrol (DES) is the classic example. The carcinogenic potential of genistein, a naturally occurring plant estrogen in soy, has been shown in mice treated neonatally. In a study reported in the journal, Cancer Research, the incidence of uterine adenocarcinoma in 18-month-old mice was 35% for genistein and 31% for DES (diethylstilbestrol).(6) This data suggests that genistein is carcinogenic if exposure occurs during critical periods of differentiation. The author admonished: "Thus, the use of soy-based infant formulas in the absence of medical necessity and the marketing of soy products designed to appeal to children should be closely examined." Finally, as far as soy and its effects on infants, hypothyroidism has been shown in infants receiving soy formula.(2) The next major concern is genistein's estrogenic and anti-androgenic effects on adult male animals and humans. This effect was shown clearly in a study on adult male reproductive tracts.(8) In intact adult male mice, genistein (2.5 mg per kg of body weight per day for only 9 days) reduced testicular and serum Testosterone concentrations and pituitary LH-content. These results suggest that genistein — in doses comparble to those that would exist in a soy-based diet — induced typical estrogenic effects. A second study showed plasma Testosterone and androstenedione levels were significantly lower in the animals fed a phytoestrogen-rich diet compared with animals fed a phytoestrogen-free diet.(9) These results indicated that consumption of dietary phytoestrogens over a relatively short period can significantly alter plasma androgen hormone levels. In a study of Japanese men, total and free Testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake. (5) The evidence continues. In rats that were fed a diet in which casein was replaced by soy protein isolate/isoflavones, both serum levels of Testosterone and weight of testes were significantly reduced.(7) Finally, in a study that may correlate more strongly with weight-training athletes, diets that consist of inferior protein (soy) may increase protein breakdown in skeletal muscle.(4) Pigs were fed diets based on soybean-protein isolate or casein for 15 weeks. A transient rise in the level of cortisol was shown to occur in the postprandial phase only in the soybean group. The authors of this study concluded: "These data suggest that the inferior quality of dietary soybean protein induces hormonally-mediated upregulation of muscle protein breakdown for recruitment of circulatory amino acids in a postabsorptive state." In other words, soy intake induces the body to break down muscle protein in order for it to get its required amino acids. Conclusions At this time it's recommended that: • Infants not be given soy-based formula until more research is done on safety in regard to neonatal sexual development and its effects on thyroid suppression. • Men not use soy products until more research is done on its effects on Testosterone and testicular function. • Weight-training individuals who hope for increased muscle hypertrophy not use soy protein until more research is done on effects of decreased Testosterone, increased cortisol levels and muscle protein breakdown. Scientists Protest Soy Approval in Unusual Letter Scientists' Letter DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH and HUMAN SERVICES Public Health Service Food and Drug Administration National Center For Toxicological Research Jefferson, Ark. 72079-9502 Daniel M. Sheehan, Ph.D. Director, Estrogen Base Program Division of Genetic and Reproductive Toxicology and Daniel R. Doerge, Ph.D. Division of Biochemical Toxicology February 18, 1999 Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration Rockville, MD 20852 To whom it may concern, We are writing in reference to Docket # 98P-0683; "Food Labeling: Health Claims; Soy Protein and Coronary Heart Disease." We oppose this health claim because there is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolize of daidzen, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid. This is true for a number of species, including humans. Additionally, the adverse effects in humans occur in several tissues and, apparently, by several distinct mechanisms. Genistein is clearly estrogenic; it possesses the chemical structural features necessary for estrogenic activity (; Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Tong, et al, 1997; Miksicek, 1998) and induces estrogenic responses in developing and adult animals and in adult humans. In rodents, equol is estrogenic and acts as an estrogenic endocrine disruptor during development (Medlock, et al, 1995a,8). Faber and Hughes (1993) showed alterations in LH regulation following this developmental treatment with genistein. Thus, during pregnancy in humans, isoflavones per se could be a risk factor for abnormal brain and reproductive tract development. Furthermore, pregnant Rhesus monkeys fed genistein had serum estradiol levels 50- 100 percent higher than the controls in three different areas of the maternal circulation (Harrison, et al, 1998). Given that the Rhesus monkey is the best experimental model for humans, and that a women's own estrogens are a very significant risk factor for breast cancer, it is unreasonable to approve the health claim until complete safety studies of soy protein are conducted. Of equally grave concern is the finding that the fetuses of genistein fed monkeys had a 70 percent higher serum estradiol level than did the controls (Harrison, et al, 1998). Development is recognized as the most sensitive life stage for estrogen toxicity because of the indisputable evidence of a very wide variety of frank malformations and serious functional deficits in experimental animals and humans. In the human population, DES exposure stands as a prime example of adverse estrogenic effects during development. About 50 percent of the female offspring and a smaller fraction of male offspring displayed one or more malformations in the reproductive tract, as well as a lower prevalence (about 1 in a thousand) of malignancies. In adults, genistein could be a risk factor for a number of estrogen-associated diseases. Even without the evidence of elevated serum estradiol levels in Rhesus fetuses, potency and dose differences between DES and the soy isoflavones do not provide any assurance that the soy protein isoflavones per se will be without adverse effects. First, calculations, based on the literature, show that doses of soy protein isoflavones used in clinical trials which demonstrated estrogenic effects were as potent as low but active doses of DES in Rhesus monkeys (Sheehan, unpublished data). Second, we have recently shown that estradiol shows no threshold in an extremely large dose-response experiment (Sheehan, et al, 1999), and we subsequently have found 31 dose-response curves for hormone-mimicking chemicals that also fail to show a threshold (Sheehan, 1998a). Our conclusions are that no dose is without risk; the extent of risk is simply a function of dose. These two features support and extend the conclusion that it is inappropriate to allow health claims for soy protein isolate. Additionally, isoflavones are inhibitors of the thyroid peroxidase which makes T3 and T4. Inhibition can be expected to generate thyroid abnormalities, including goiter and autoimmune thyroiditis. There exists a significant body of animal data that demonstrates goitrogenic and even carcinogenic effects of soy products (cf., Kimura et al., 1976). Moreover, there are significant reports of goitrogenic effects from soy consumption in human infants (cf., Van Wyk et al., 1959; Hydovitz, 1960; Shepard et al., 1960; Pinchers et al., 1965; Chorazy et al., 1995) and adults (McCarrison, 1933; Ishizuki, et al., 1991). Recently, we have identified genistein and daidzein as the goitrogenic isoflavonoid components of soy and defined the mechanisms for inhibition of thyroid peroxidase (TPO)- catalyzed thyroid hormone synthesis in vitro (Divi et al., 1997; Divi et al., 1996). The observed suicide inactivation of TPO by isoflavones, through covalent binding to TPO, raises the possibility of neoantigen formation and because anti-TPO is the principal autoantibody present in auto immune thyroid disease. This hypothetical mechanism is consistent with the reports of Fort et al. (1986, 1990) of a doubling of risk for autoimmune thyroiditis in children who had received soy formulas as infants compared to infants receiving other forms of milk. The serum levels of isoflavones in infants receiving soy formula that are about five times higher than in women receiving soy supplements who show menstrual cycle disturbances, including an increased estradiol level in the follicular phase (Setchell, et al, 1997). Assuming a dose-dependent risk, it is unreasonable to assert that the infant findings are irrelevant to adults who may consume smaller amounts of isoflavones. Additionally, while there is an unambiguous biological effect on menstrual cycle length (Cassidy, et al, 1994), it is unclear whether the soy effects are beneficial or adverse. Furthermore, we need to be concerned about transplacental passage of isoflavones as the DES case has shown us that estrogens can pass the placenta. No such studies have been conducted with genistein in humans or primates. As all estrogens which have been studied carefully in human populations are two-edged swords in humans (Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Sheehan, 1997), with both beneficial and adverse effects resulting from the administration of the same estrogen, it is likely that the same characteristic is shared by the isoflavones. The animal data is also consistent with adverse effects in humans. Finally, initial data fi-om a robust (7,000 men) long-term (30+ years) prospective epidemiological study in Hawaii showed that Alzheimer's disease prevalence in Hawaiian men was similar to European-ancestry Americans and to Japanese (White, et al, 1996a). In contrast, vascular dementia prevalence is similar in Hawaii and Japan and both are higher than in European-ancestry Americans. This suggests that common ancestry or environmental factors in Japan and Hawaii are responsible for the higher prevalence of vascular dementia in these locations. Subsequently, this same group showed a significant dose-dependent risk (up to 2.4 fold) for development of vascular dementia and brain atrophy from consumption of tofu, a soy product rich in isoflavones (White, et al, 1996b). This finding is consistent with the environmental causation suggested from the earlier analysis, and provides evidence that soy (tofu) phytoestrogens causes vascular dementia. Given that estrogens are important for maintenance of brain function in women; that the male brain contains aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol; and that isoflavones inhibit this enzymatic activity (Irvine, 1998), there is a mechanistic basis for the human findings. Given the great difficulty in discerning the relationship between exposures and long latency adverse effects in the human population (Sheehan, 1998b), and the potential mechanistic explanation for the epidemiological findings, this is an important study. It is one of the more robust, well-designed prospective epidemiological studies generally available. We rarely have such power in human studies, as well as a potential mechanism, and thus the results should be interpreted in this context. Does the Asian experience provide us with reassurance that the isoflavones are safe? A review of several examples lead to the conclusion, — "Given the parallels with herbal medicines with respect to attitudes, monitoring deficiencies, and the general difficulty of detecting toxicities with long Iatencies, I am unconvinced that the long history of apparent safe use of soy products can provide confidence that they are indeed without risk." (Sheehan, 1998b). It should also be noted that the claim on p. 62978 that soy protein foods are GRAS is in conflict with the recent return by CFSAN to Archer Daniels Midland of a petition for GRAS status for soy protein because of deficiencies in reporting adverse effects in the petition. Thus GRAS status has not been granted. Linda Kahl can provide you with details. It would seem appropriate for FDA to speak with a single voice regarding soy protein isolate. Taken together, the findings presented here are self-consistent and demonstrate that genistein and other isoflavones can have adverse effects in a variety of species, including humans. Animal studies are the front line in evaluating toxicity, as they predict, with good accuracy, adverse effects in humans. For the isoflavones, we additionally have evidence of two types of adverse effects in humans, despite the very few studies that have addressed this subject. While isoflavones may have beneficial effects at some ages or circumstances, this cannot be assumed to be true at all ages. Isoflavones are like other estrogens in that they are two-edged swords, conferring both benefits and risk (Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Sheehan, 1997). The health labeling of soy protein isolate for foods needs to considered just as would the addition of any estrogen or goitrogen to foods, which are bad ideas. Estrogenic and goitrogenic drugs are regulated by FDA, and are taken under a physician's care. Patients are informed of risks, and are monitored by their physicians for evidence of toxicity. There are no similar safeguards in place for foods, so the public will be put at potential risk from soy isoflavones in soy protein isolate without adequate warning and information. Finally, NCTR is currently conducting a long-term multigeneration study of genistein administered in feed to rats. The analysis of the dose range-finding studies are nearly complete now. As preliminary data, which is still confidential, may be relevant to your decision, I suggest you contact Dr. Barry Delclos at the address on the letterhead, or email him. Sincerely, Daniel M. Sheehan Daniel R. Doerge References 1. Atanassova N (2000). Comparative Effects of Neonatal Exposure of Male Rats to Potent and Weak (Environmental) Estrogens on Spermatogenesis at Puberty and the Relationship to Adult Testis Size and Fertility: Evidence for Stimulatory Effects of Low Estrogen Levels. Endocrinology Vol. 141, No. 10 3898-3907 2. Chorazy PA (1995). Persistent hypothyroidism in an infant receiving a soy formula: case report and review of the literature. Pediatrics Jul: 96 (1 Pt 1): 148-50 3. Irvine CHG (1998). Phytoestrogens in soy-based infant foods: concentrations, daily intake, and possible biological effects. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med1998 Mar; 217 (3): 247-53) 4. Lohrke B (2001). Activation of skeletal muscle protein breakdown following consumption of soybean protein in pigs. Br J Nutr 2001 Apr; 85 (4): 447-57 5. Nagata C (2000). Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men. Nutr Cancer; 36 (1): 14-8 6. Newbold RR (2001). Uterine Adenocarcinoma in Mice Treated Neonatally with Genistein. Cancer Research 61, 4325-4328 7. Pollard M (2000). Prevention of spontaneous prostate-related cancer in Lobund-Wistar rats by soy protein isolate/isoflavone diet. Prostate 2000 Oct 1; 45 (2): 101-5 8. Strauss L (1998). Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract. Mol Cell Endocrinol Sep 25; 144 (1-2): 83-93 9. Weber KS (2001). Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels and prostate weight without altering LH, prostate 5alpha-reductase or testicular steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide levels in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats. J Endocrinol Sep; 170 (3): 591-9

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 3rd, 2006, 9:10 pm

ABSTRACT Strength and conditioning professionals should be cognizant of the nutrient needs of their athletes. The larger individual should supplement with protein (and calories) just to meet his or her daily nutrient requirements. It is suggested that supplementation with protein bars

This article is complete crap as I will demonstrate shortly. Just because a guy is a nutritionist doesn't mean anything to me. The guy has to look like an athlete - then maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. It's like the obese cardiologist telling my mom that she had to cut butter and mayo from her diet. Anyway... Protein bars and pre-made drinks are absolute garbage the protein they use is usually degraded soy or a cheap whey isolate that has to be cooked at a high temp to pass FDA snuff. The cooking process usually wacks any nutritional benefit the protein had. The result - glorified candy bars/ fruit juice. If you're going to use a protein powder - stick to a casein/whey blend. Pure whey blends are usually garbage too.

(or with beverages or powders) is a feasible method of receiving dietary energy and the essential amino acids needed to promote skeletal muscle growth and recovery.

I would only limit this to immediately before and after working out. The vast bulk of your protein should come from whole food sources.

Protein intake plays an important role in promoting skeletal muscle hypertrophy and enhancing post-workout recovery (i.e., enhancing net protein balance) (2, 8). Does it matter if dietary protein is consumed as whole foods (e.g., beef, pork, chicken, fish) or as a supplement (e.g., ready-to-drink protein beverages, protein bars, protein powders)?

Yes. Whole foods have tons of micronutrients, vitamins and minerals that supplements lack.

A recent investigation examined the effect of protein bar supplementation on body composition alterations in young men from a university strength-training class. All subjects were considered experienced lifters with at least 1 year of experience in strength training. They were given daily servings of micronutrient-fortified protein bars containing soy or whey protein (33 g/d for 9 weeks, n = 9 for each protein treatment group). Subjects were randomly assigned in a double-blind manner to either a soy, whey, or control group. The controls did the exercise program but did not consume a protein product (n = 9 for each group). Each subject was instructed to consume 3 protein bars per day for the 9-week training period. Their daily diets were otherwise not altered. The strength-training protocol was 3 sets of 4–6 repetitions for 14 exercises that targeted major muscle groups: chest press, chest fly, incline press, lat pull-down, seated row, military press, lateral raise for the deltoids, preacher curl, bicep curl, supine triceps extension, seated triceps extension, leg press, calf raise, and abdominal crunch. Both the soy and whey treatment groups showed a gain in lean body mass, but the training-only group did not. This study did not show the actual pre- and postnumbers but instead presented the data as bar graphs. Thus, it is difficult to discern the exact pre- to post-training and supplementation changes. Nonetheless, according to Brown et al. (1), “soy and whey protein bar products both promoted exercise training-induced lean body mass gain.”

God, is that study flawed - was it the protein - or merely the extra calories they were consuming? I think it the extra calories.

Consuming protein supplements to help promote lean body mass gains is a common dietary practice among bodybuilders and other strength-power athletes. This study used resistance-trained subjects; thus, it is not surprising that the group who trained without protein bar supplementation did not realize significant gains in lean body mass. Conversely, protein supplementation with soy or whey assisted in lean body mass gains. However, it is not known when the protein bars were consumed.

That's kind of a big variable they should have standardized - why not force them to eat right after the workout?

Clearly, if they were consumed pre- or postexercise, this could assist in lean body mass gains (5, 9, 12). This study did not control for this variable; therefore, it is not entirely clear if the gains in lean body mass were the result of proper nutrient timing or the mere addition of protein or energy. Nevertheless, this study does suggest that protein supplementation may improve body composition in resistance-trained subjects.

Wow. What a breakthrough...

This may help dispel the notion that soy protein is inferior to milk-based or meat proteins.

Really? How? Maybe you should have taken some serun testosterone readings, or you should measured the increases in mass between soy v. whey - maybe you'd have something there. B.S. generalities are hardly enough to dispel the notion.

In fact, a recent 6-month clinical trial on overweight individuals found that a diet high in soy protein and low in fat can induce significant fat loss in overweight and obese people while preserving muscle mass (4). Soy protein has been shown in well-controlled animal studies to prevent exercise-induced protein degradation in skeletal muscle via the inhibition calpain-mediated proteolysis (10). Furthermore, data show that whey protein supplementation (20 g/d for 3 months) in humans can increase peak power and 30-second work capacity and augment antioxidant defenses (6).

Now, he's really laying it on thick. You substitute the soy with lean animal protein (skinless chix breast, fish) and you'll get the exact same result - but I'll bet you their blood profile will be much better than the soy group.

It should be evident to the strength and conditioning professional that consuming sufficient dietary energy with a particular emphasis on protein is critical for promoting gains in lean body mass.

Gee, you think?

Total protein and energy intake as well as nutrient timing play a key role in the adaptive response to exercise training (7, 8). It should also be emphasized that the notion that high protein intakes are harmful to an otherwise healthy individual has no factual basis.

The only intelligent thing in this article. PLEASE READ THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

For example, one study investigated bodybuilders and other well-trained athletes with high and medium protein intake, respectively. The authors concluded that it appears that protein intake under 2.8 grams daily per kilogram body weight does not impair renal function in well-trained athletes as indicated by the measures of renal function used in this study (11).

Obviously.

[old] kwadams · Post by **[old] kwadams** » March 3rd, 2006, 9:37 pm

Diesel-- Do you supplement your diet with a protein powder and if so, what do you recommend and where do you get it? I'm not a huge fan of GNC, but I've been taken their PM Protein product before bed for several months now. It's supposedly a 60:40 blend of whey (fast acting) and casein (slow) protein. Any thoughts? Thanks for any further advice or suggestions. Kevin

[old] johnmcclellan · Post by **[old] johnmcclellan** » March 3rd, 2006, 10:08 pm

Tofu has gotten a bad name with many people, but I've got some really good recipies if your interested in trying some? How about tofu jerky, good stuff . 
 Tofu is fine with me as long as it is in hot and sour soup. I'm really interested to see all of the different studies that people are bringing forth on the merits of different proteins. Milk will cause cancer, soy will turn you into a wimp (I've got 5 kids so my wife would probably be ok with that at this point in our lives), but either whey or soy is equally good for taking care of your muscles after a workout. So what does this tell us? I recently read "The Paleo Diet for Athletes", and that seems to make a lot of sense to me, and I used the principles in that to get down to lightweight. The authors are hard core protein advocates, but they don't recommend ODing on it either. Good discussion about the quality differences of various sources. My conclusion - I wouldn't want to live on soy alone, I've got no ethical issues with eating meat, and if I'm eating a broad range of foods w/o much simple carbs and w/o much saturated fat, I'm going to be just fine. 
 I wouldn't mind talking to you some time about cycling. What do you think about having a cycling thread similar to the running thread in the general category? I'd like to pick peoples brains about workouts they like for different terrains, types of race, etc. and lots of other topics. 
 I would definitely participate in a cycling thread - there is a discussion about cycling developing in the Wolverine Plan thread - I would expect some of those folks to join in.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 4th, 2006, 3:45 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(kwadams @ Mar 3 2006, 08:37 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Diesel-- Do you supplement your diet with a protein powder and if so, what do you recommend and where do you get it? I'm not a huge fan of GNC, but I've been taken their PM Protein product before bed for several months now. It's supposedly a 60:40 blend of whey (fast acting) and casein (slow) protein. Any thoughts? Thanks for any further advice or suggestions. Kevin </td></tr></table> Yes, generally I eat at least 6x/day and eat around 3000 calories when I want to get into single digit b.f.% around 4000 cals for maintenance, and around 5-6K when I'm training to add more muscle or get stronger in the gym. The erg keeps me lean and the ticker running on turbo efficiency without killing the joints. Right now I'm around 238 at around 10% body fat (6'4") - and I'm going to "diet" down to around 7-8% for the summer. (It'll take me about 8-10 weeks - my diet is pretty basic: lots of oats, sweet potatoes, and rice, chicken breasts, fish, and lean red meat {skirt steaks and flank steak) - tons of dark, leafy greens, berries, apples, essential fatty acid supplements, and I make my own salad dressings with extra virgin olive oil. Notice how I don't really care what I weigh - I go by what the mirror tells me and what my training log tells me. I track my diets by how well I am able to maintain my strength levels with a caloric deficit. I've done it a bunch of times already, so I pretty much know when I have to up my calories or lay off the carbs. Yet another benefit to keeping a food log. The only thing I buy at GNC is ground flax seed. I think most of the stuff (other than the vitamins and flax oil) they peddle is garbage aimed at the clueless consumer, fad supplements, diet pills, you name it. . I've never tried the PM protein - what I use is this stuff called Metabolic Drive by Biotest you can get it here: <a href="http://www.t-nation.com/category.jsp?ca ... 4&pageNo=1" target="_blank">http://www.t-nation.com/category.jsp?ca ... o=1</a> All the flavors are really good, but I stick with Vanilla b/c it's the most versatile. I think in the "Weight Loss Thread" I posted my recipe for my "Super Shake" - it's pretty good stuff - it's got everything you need. It's pretty much the equivalent of rocket fuel.

take care and good luck, D

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 4th, 2006, 4:01 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(John McClellan @ Mar 3 2006, 09:08 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> but either whey or soy is equally good for taking care of your muscles after a workout. So what does this tell us? </td></tr></table> I don't think this is true at all given the testosterone suppresive effects of soy. You're safer going with an animal protein. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I recently read "The Paleo Diet for Athletes", and that seems to make a lot of sense to me, and I used the principles in that to get down to lightweight. </td></tr></table> yes, precisely - those old cavemen really know how to eat to stay lean. It's pretty much what I use to eat 5-6K when training to add muscle mass or strength and I get to eat like a horse and never go above 15% b.f., usually maintaining at 10-12% b.f. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The authors are hard core protein advocates, but they don't recommend ODing on it either. </td></tr></table> What do you consider "ODing" ? The amount of protein you need is related to the amount of activity you perform as well as the nature of that activity. If you are a rower who trains like a rower (lots of rowing, weight training, and running - you are thrashing your body everyday - you are going to need a lot more than the RDA of protein, sleep, and fluids to repair that damage. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Good discussion about the quality differences of various sources. </td></tr></table> Yes indeed. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> My conclusion - I wouldn't want to live on soy alone, I've got no ethical issues with eating meat, and if I'm eating a broad range of foods w/o much simple carbs and w/o much saturated fat, I'm going to be just fine. </td></tr></table> My conclusion - given what I've researched - I wouldn't want to even eat soy, even though we all do it's hidden in a lot of food products...but what I don't get is why, given the evidence of what this does to Test levels and testicular function, why any man who isn't a vegan/vegetarian would even want to touch the stuff. The irony is that I think soy is an awesome supplement for women - for precisely those reasons it's such a crappy supplement for men. Increases estrogen production, which comes in really handy for post-menopausal women. take care, D

[old] kwadams · Post by **[old] kwadams** » March 4th, 2006, 11:34 am

Thanks, Diesel. I'll give it a try. Do you mix with water or milk? I like to keep the carbs low at bedtime, so water is what I normally use. Appreciate your advice. Keep hitting it hard! Take care, Kevin

[old] Ben Rea · Post by **[old] Ben Rea** » March 4th, 2006, 12:09 pm

i use milk to mix with my protein

[old] Yukon John · Post by **[old] Yukon John** » March 4th, 2006, 2:14 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>men eating soy... how unfortunate. 1. it's a shitty protein - really shitty - read here: I as a man, like having nice high-Testosterone levels - that is what makes us "men" in a biological sense - oh yeah, it's also a big factor in what keeps us looking younger.. 2. if you're not a vegan/vegetarian then why the h*** would you even waste your time with this crap? Unless being scrawny and weak are appealing to you that is... </td></tr></table> I read this to my family and we're all having a good laugh

. You are entitled to your opinions Diesel and I'm not going to dis you. But you do come on kind of strong, must be all that testosterone

. I completely agree that babies shouldn't have soy milk. It's been pretty well documented that breast milk is best. Soy products are a bit like nuts too in that early in life they can trigger allergies. There really are two camps as far as soy goes, for or against. You won't find many people in the middle. I personally think the stuff is great. I have a lot of it and I'm not scrawny and I'm not growing breasts or losing facial hair. Meny people have also thought that I'm younger then I am, but I think that eating well and exercising are responsible for that and soy isn't going to make me appear older. I'm obviously not going to be able to sway your thoughts on this issue, but for others reading, I suggest you research this topic yourself and come to your own conclusions. Look for nuetral publications that aren't sponsored by the beef or dairy industry. I do believe in everything in moderation though. Too much of anything probably isn't going to be a good thing (including all of that chemically injected yummy beef

.) How's that for a testosterone induced statement

)

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 4th, 2006, 2:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(kwadams @ Mar 4 2006, 10:34 AM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks, Diesel. I'll give it a try. Do you mix with water or milk? I like to keep the carbs low at bedtime, so water is what I normally use. Appreciate your advice. Keep hitting it hard! Take care, Kevin </td></tr></table> If I am bulking and need the extra calories - milk - if not water - post workout I'll throw in some fruit juice (about 4oz. worth)

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » March 4th, 2006, 3:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 01:14 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I read this to my family and we're all having a good laugh

. You are entitled to your opinions Diesel and I'm not going to dis you. </td></tr></table> read that first sentence again. You already did. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>But you do come on kind of strong, must be all that testosterone

. </td></tr></table> You make it seem, like that's a bad thing.. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I completely agree that babies shouldn't have soy milk. </td></tr></table> Nor should men in general. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> There really are two camps as far as soy goes, for or against. </td></tr></table> I think we know on what side of the fence we're on. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I have a lot of it and I'm not scrawny and I'm not growing breasts or losing facial hair. </td></tr></table> Having lower than normal testosterone readings does not imply "growing breasts" or "losing facial hair." It does imply loss of strength, lean muscle mass, lower sexual libido, and diminished sexual potency. Since you are bringing it up, 163 lbs. at 6' is pretty much scrawny unless you are under 10% b.f. If you trying to race as a lightweight and you are not at single digit b.f. you are leaving a lot of power on the table But that's just me. We live in a society where Brad Pitt (who weighed 155 for Fight Club) is considered "buff", men care for their looks more than a lot of women and current movies are dominated by a legion of androgynous pansy-looking, girlish looking guys like Orlando Bloom who are presented to modern young men as the epitome of manhood . Where are the Steve McQueens, Clint Eastwoods, Marlon Brandos and Sean Connerys of my generation? <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Look for nuetral publications that aren't sponsored by the beef or dairy industry. </td></tr></table> Why do soy advocates automatically assume that every article that is critical of the product is automatically sponsored by the beef or dairy industry? That came from a training website. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I do believe in everything in moderation though. Too much of anything probably isn't going to be a good thing (including all of that chemically injected yummy beef

.) How's that for a testosterone induced statement

) </td></tr></table> Not bad. But give me a good, bloody, medium rare steak with a smashing Rioja over a Tofurkey any day of the week.

[old] rowan · Post by **[old] rowan** » March 4th, 2006, 3:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(razorfizh @ Mar 3 2006, 07:23 PM) </div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Looking at basic stuff I eat: Bread: 6 grams/slice (guess 6 pieces / day * 6 = 36) Troy </td></tr></table> Hi Troy, I think you must be mistaken about this, I don't think you get any bread with as much as 6 grams of protein per slice? I think it's more likely 6g protein per 100g, which would be 2g or 3g per slice, max. Just thought I'd point out the possible mistake in case it affects your idea of how much protein you're getting. Interesting discussion, this...but all this nutritional info is confusing, it surprises me that there isn't more consensus on these issues from the various scientific disciplines that research this stuff. You'd think they would have nailed it by now, and been able to tell us with assurance what we want to know, but I for one am still quite confused.

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