C2 Vs. Elliptical

[[old] Xeno]

I have used the elliptical trainer for cross training.<br /><br />The only way to know exactly how many calories one burns during exercise is if one is stuck in an air tight chamber and the air temparture change is measured over time.<br /><br />The range of motion of the legs are 100% in rowing as well as the range of the arms at the elbow joint. With the elliptical trainer that is not the case. There is also less pivoting of the upper body when using the elliptical machine.<br /><br />In the extreme case after a warmup:<br />I guess it could be possible to sprint for a minute on the elliptical trainer and be completely exhausted...maybe...try it and don't hold me responsible for whatever happens.<br /><br />On the rowing machine if you have a bit of technique you can blow your doors of in one minute and feel as if you are done for the day. Try it. Again do not hold me responsible for what can happen after that.<br /><br />The resistance range is greater on the rowing machine.<br /><br />The elliptical trainer is superior to running on a treadmill for the vast majority of people seeking fitness. N.B. I am not talking about the minority of people who can run for ever and never have a knee or ankle or hip problem.<br /><br />In both cases I am giving the thumbs up for a NO IMPACT exercise.<br /><br />This is my two cents worth at 2300.<br />XENO

[[old] Carl Henrik]

More than a year ago now, when I was on vacation I didn't have acces to a gym with an erg. I thought I would go for an elliptical instead and do a interval session, 5x4min, as the only workout that week. The machine displayed wattages and given my rowing wattages and this being a new movement for me I figured 300w would be suitable goal.<br /><br />The intervals went along as: 300+w, 350+w, 400+w, 400+w, 500+w. <br /><br />I left the gym uncomfortable not knowing if I had gotten my heart a good work out or not. <br /><br />It was quite exciting whilst doing the excercise, though, being able to reach those astronomical numbers if only I pushed for them. <br /><br />On a cycle ergometer I tried holding 275w for half an hour. This was a solid comfortable work out with deep but slow breaths at the end. On the erg it would have been all out. <br /><br />Another note: The HR is dependent on the type of movement. So you can't say that 150bpm erging is the same intensity as 150bpm running for example.

[[old] tditmar]

<!--QuoteBegin-Carl Henrik+Nov 30 2005, 02:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Carl Henrik @ Nov 30 2005, 02:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Another note: The HR is dependent on the type of movement. So you can't say that 150bpm erging is the same intensity as 150bpm running for example. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Q) In terms of physical or mechanical output, how unique is rowing in comparison with other sports?<br /><br />Steve Ingham: The stroke cadence in rowing (i.e. the number of times the muscles are required to contract) is very low compared to other sports, with a maximum of around 50 strokes per minute. On the other hand, Maurice Green, the Olympic 100m sprinter took just 50 strides and in less than ten seconds to win gold in Sydney, that’s about 300 per minute.<br /><br />At Olympic level, the forces applied to the oar on each stroke amount to an 80kg weightlift. It will be slightly less in the University boat race, but the statistics firmly categorise rowing as a strength-endurance sport.<br /><br />This is from The English Institute of Sports...http://www.eis2win.co.uk/gen/news_physi ... 05.aspx<br /><br />Another interesting one...<br /><br />The Cardiovascular Effects of Training<br />Blood pressure response to resistance exercise pertains to the rower, as rowing can be thought of as a weight-training sport, since the muscles push against water resistance. Blood pressure has been found to increase only slightly with muscle mass accretion, so may relate instead to recruitment of accessory muscles as primary muscles fatigue during repetitive exercise. One mechanism responsible for high BP’s associated with heavy-resistance exercise is the Valsalva maneuver mentioned in the previous chapter. Most lifters hold their breaths when lifting a heavy weight, and rowers hold their breaths briefly at the catch, prior to the leg drive. This maneuver increases afterload on the heart and increases BP momentarily. Blood vessels in each muscle participating in the lift (or in rower’s case, throughout the drive) are mechanically closed off by the force of the contracting muscle. This increases the total peripheral resistance, which is a summation of the relative constriction or dilation of all arteries in the body with the exception of the lungs. The largest contributor to increased BP is a reflex called the pressor response. BP increases are stimulated by powerful contractions in an attempt to perfuse the ischemic (O2 deprived) tissue, mediated by mechanical and chemical receptors in the muscle. A signal is sent from the muscle to the CV neuronal control center, and reflex action increases the BP (Cerny 2001, p. 224-225). <br /> Blood pressure also responds to aerobic exercise, although to a lesser extent than resistance training. Afterload on the heart changes very little at high workloads. This type of exercise elicits active vasodilatation in the working muscles, reducing the total peripheral resistance. Systolic pressure increases as workload increases, resulting in greater force of heart contraction. BP response for arm work is higher than for leg work at the same workload, due to the difference in relative vasodilatation. A small muscle mass has a small area of vasodilatation, leaving a larger relative area in the rest of the body for vasoconstriction compared to a larger muscle mass. The larger muscle mass has a larger area for vasodilatation, decreasing total peripheral resistance. Stress on the heart with resistance exercise correlates with large increases in afterload and heart flow resistance -- a pressure overload of the heart. Contrastly, aerobic endurance exercise is associated with large increases in cardiac output and a large volume of blood returning to the heart, resulting in a volume overload of the heart which offers much less stress (Cerny 2001, p.227). <br /><br />This is an interesting paper from www.wrra.cc/media/articles/RowingStudy.doc <br /><br />Rowing or erging for that matter is really just lifting weights long enough without stopping to be aerobic. I don't mean to be Captain Obvious here, but differences are differences and it seems to me that the physiological benefits from rowing are somewhere between the effects of ellipticals or running and weightlifting. What these different demands on the body mean, is lost on me except rowers are somewhere between weightlifters and endurance athletes.<br /><br />And finally, one very interesting chart is from Crossfit.com and their journal on what is crossfit. The last page (11) shows the amount of time spent in the Phosphagen, Glycolytic, and Oxidative Pathways for various sports. <a href='http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf</a>

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and rowers hold their breaths briefly at the catch, prior to the leg drive. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />That's very interesting. On one of his DVD's, Xeno tells you not to do that, rather to exhale when rolling into the catch but keep the air flowing. <br /><br />Byron

[[old] afolpe]

I've only used an elliptical a couple of times, and found it to be easier than rowing, but still a surprisingly good and interesting workout. What I found made it much more interesting and somewhat more difficult was not to hold on to anything at all, and to force myself to run fast on it while balancing all the time. Not as easy as it sounds, at least for me. I also found that if I bent over a bit, it reminded my of skating, as I could get my butt muscles really involved. 40+ minutes doing that went very quickly- certainly better than nothing if you can't find an erg.<br /><br />Andrew

[[old] ljwagner]

My wife uses an elliptical an hour a day, and she struggles to lose 5 lbs.<br /><br />I erg or treadmill 4-5 times a week, and she is after me to eat more and snack so I don't lose weight. My weight is stable.<br /><br />Like Xeno says, you get a bigger range of motion on the erg, and you have to use your muscles every stroke. So I think a lot more calories burned erging. The numbers on the ellipticals do not tell the whole story. A lot of people ride the elliptical foot boards down, they don't have to push them down, and don't. Same with steppers.<br /><br />Maybe if they kept their hip height constant on those, and actually pushed the whole length of the stride/step, they'd be burning the listed calories.<br />

[[old] aptdwler]

I've never used an eliptical, but I wonder if standing helps get the heart rate up. In years past, I did a number of triathlons. I found a heart rate monitor useful in cycling, but all but useless when running. My heart rate was always above the training range, when running. <br /><br />The real reason for the lack of popularity of the rower, in most gyms, can be found if you read the picture part of the NYT article:<br /><br /> "rowing machines “tend to place the exerciser low to the ground” where it’s “more difficult to watch TV or check out the other clients,” Dr. Chodzko-Zajko said."<br /><br />Most people want to check out the scenery.............<br /><br /><a href='http://www.geocities.com/fightraining' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/fightraining</a>

[[old] mschweisguth]

<!--QuoteBegin-ufcpa+Nov 29 2005, 07:11 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ufcpa @ Nov 29 2005, 07:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm seeking thoughts/experience of C2 users who have also done workouts on elliptical machines.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have a 95xi in my home office and I love it. When I got the machine, I weighed around 240 lbs but, now, I am around 200 lbs. However, the bulk of the weight loss is probably related to my diet changes instead and the fact that "because I exercise," the cells in my body are then dosed with oxygen and nutrients so, unlike the past, I don't have to eat for an "energy lift."<br /><br />Since I felt that my 95xi was lonely, I recently purchased a Concept2.<br /><br />IMO, I don't think it's a question of 95xi versus Concept2 because these machines complement one another nicely.<br /><br />While my 95xi does a great job with my legs and butt, my Concept2 works its magic with my stomach, arms, chest and shoulders.<br /><br />While the price of my 95xi was reasonable, since I bought it before the "residential models" pushed up it's price, I still think my Concept2 is the bargin since it's now 1/5th the price of a 95xi; it offers the rowing log and, unlike the 95xi, it's very portable!<br /><br />However, I believe that the 95xi "earned its keep" because I was able to row 13000 meters an hour after having my Concept2 for only a few days. When I was in college, I was lucky to last 20 minutes on an erg on my best days.<br /><br />In short, the 95xi gave me A LOT of aerobic capacity.<br /><br />Thus, I agree with the NY Times' experts that the "one-two punch" is having both a "BEST OF CLASS" rower AND a "BEST OF CLASS" elliptical.<br />

[[old] michael]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While my 95xi does a great job with my legs and butt, my Concept2 works its magic with my stomach, arms, chest and shoulders. </td></tr></table><br /><br />The C2 works the lower body 65 percent, the upper body 35 percent, actually. As a general rule, anyway.<br />

[[old] Godfried]

<!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jan 15 2006, 09:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jan 15 2006, 09:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The C2 works the lower body 65 percent, the upper body 35 percent, actually.  As a general rule, anyway. </td></tr></table><br />Do you have data on that?<br /><br />I know I don't use my legs as much as I should ,<br />but I'm not planning to row on water or something like that ,<br />so proper technique is not important for me.<br /><br />I only want to exercise.

[[old] DavidW]

<!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jan 15 2006, 07:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jan 15 2006, 07:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The C2 works the lower body 65 percent, the upper body 35 percent, actually.  As a general rule, anyway. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />But, at the end of the day, all of the power you produce ultimately has to be transmitted through your arms and through your fingers.