C2 Vs. Elliptical

[[old] ufcpa]

I'm seeking thoughts/experience of C2 users who have also done workouts on elliptical machines. <br /><br />I've rowed religiously for the past 18 months- 11k meters daily, 6 days/week, with a calorie burn of approximately 725 per session (44-45 minutes). My heart rate averages 150 bpm during the session. My fitness level has improved significantly and I lost 20 or so pounds (and eat everything I want). Last week, I went on a 7 day cruise on a ship without ergs, but with a number of new Lifefitness 95xi elliptical machines- the company's top-of-the-line model. Long story short, the workouts on the elliptical were great, and I ended up burning the same number of calories as the erg in about 20% less time. My perceived level of exertion was less on the elliptical, although my average heart rate was approximately the same (155 bpm). <br /><br />I understand that the calc'd calorie burn on each machine is subject to some general assumptions, although it would seem that the elliptical would be more accurate, as it queries re: your age, weight prior to the workout. Theoretically, it seems that one might see a "better" workout from the elliptical (and I know this varies based on many factors), based on the fact that you're using both your arms and legs (like the erg), but you are standing on the elliptical, supporting your own weight, unlike the erg.<br /><br />Thoughts by anyone on this? Trust me, I love the erg, believe it's the best bang for the buck, in terms of $ cost ($850 vs. $4,500 for the elliptical), but am curious as to whether others have any similar experiences or comments.

[[old] H_2O]

The electronic displays on all the ellipticals I have ever encountered are laughably rigged.<br />On an elliptical I have no problems at all staying at "300" Watts for one hour.<br /><br />When that machine displays 300 Watts my estimate is that you are doing 230 Watts in reality<br />(possibly less).<br />I have a pretty good idea what 300 Watts feels like from both cyling and rowing ergometers.<br />On the C2 I am under pressure in 10 mins and suffering heavily after 20 mins. Similar on bicycle ergometers.<br /><br />The calorie counter is similarly rigged. <br />Take off a third of the calories to get a realistic assessment.<br /><br />Consider the range of motion and number of muscles engaged on a C2 versus an elliptical<br />and it's clear that the elliptical is nowhere in the same league as the C2.<br /><br />The elliptical isn't worth 450 much less 4500 USD.

[[old] tditmar]

But what about this comment, I am curious as well:<br /><br />"Long story short, the workouts on the elliptical were great, and I ended up burning the same number of calories as the erg in about 20% less time. My perceived level of exertion was less on the elliptical, although my average heart rate was approximately the same (155 bpm). "<br /><br />Heart rate- same<br />Perceived exertion-less<br /><br />

[[old] Hal Morgan]

The machine is in high demand because it is popular. I prefer not waiting and using an erg. I like the whole body in motion feeling I get from erging. Plus I own a boat.

[[old] michael]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hal Morgan+Nov 29 2005, 12:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Hal Morgan @ Nov 29 2005, 12:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The machine is in high demand because it is popular. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And it is popular because it is easy. Cripes, the elliptical trainer is easier to me than a stationary bike. There is only one other fitness machine in league with the C2 that will provide the "biggest bang for the buck", IMO and that is the NordicTrack X-C skier.<br />

[[old] Ducatista]

<!--QuoteBegin-tditmar+--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tditmar)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But what about this comment, I am curious as well:<br /><br />"Long story short, the workouts on the elliptical were great, and I ended up burning the same number of calories as the erg in about 20% less time. My perceived level of exertion was less on the elliptical, although my average heart rate was approximately the same (155 bpm). "<br /><br />Heart rate- same<br />Perceived exertion-less </td></tr></table><br /><br />Lots of things affect perception, mindset not the least. <br /><br />I expect some people have a hard time acclimating to a full-body exercise. Nothing on your body is exempt when you erg (except ears, maybe? scalp?). To me, that translates into LESS perceived exertion, under the many-hands(or body parts)-make-light-work principle. But to others, it may translate into "Sweet crap, none of me is at rest! WTF!" Then there's the fact that erging requires enough brain engagement to coordinate the various components of the stroke. Some (not necessarily you, ufcpa!) prefer to phone their aerobic activity in. Elliptical is perfect for that.

[[old] deppe4]

<!--QuoteBegin-ufcpa+Nov 29 2005, 08:11 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ufcpa @ Nov 29 2005, 08:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm seeking thoughts/experience of C2 users who have also done workouts on elliptical machines.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If you're looking for a full body workout that is still gentle on your body (back, knees) then the C2 is the way to go. I know of one other full body workout machine, the VersaClimber (I used one years ago), and considered getting one until I saw the difference in the home model vs the gym model. For the price and the workout the C2 is the way to go.<br /><br />I own a C2 and have used all sorts of elliptical machines at the gym. The C2 never stops being a full body workout, whereas, on an elliptical I was able to cheat by not using the 'ski pole' extensions, by leaning. I used an elliptical walker for 9 months with no results and in 3 months with my C2 I've lost weight. <br /><br />-deppe4

[[old] csabour]

<a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... +harKOD2IA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... 2IA</a><br /><br />interesting article i plucked out of row2k.com.<br /><br />the chart near the bottom gives an interesting evaluation of all of the machines. eliptical uses more energy than C2 and the runner more than the eliptical...<br /><br />this is really hard to prove eitherway. the energy exerted on the erg depends on your technique and your intensity.<br /><br />i'd like to hear what you have to say.

[[old] akit110]

<!--QuoteBegin-csabour+Nov 29 2005, 04:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(csabour @ Nov 29 2005, 04:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... +harKOD2IA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... 2IA</a><br /><br />interesting article i plucked out of row2k.com.<br /><br />the chart near the bottom gives an interesting evaluation of all of the machines. eliptical  uses more energy than C2 and the runner more than the eliptical...<br /><br />this is really hard to prove eitherway.  the energy exerted on the erg depends on your technique and your intensity.<br /><br />i'd like to hear what you have to say. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've seen other articles comparing machines. Typically the treadmill comes out on top among average users. However, the tests make no allowances that for some machines, the movement is relatively unfamiliar to the test subjects (e.g. rowing) so the workout ends up being less than optimal for burning calories. Other exercises can be very effective but take a lot of local muscle endurance (e.g. quads in cycling) to get the wattage up there. An extreme example might be in-line skating - it's a really poor calorie burner - if you can barely stand up in your skates and sort of trod along.<br /><br />

[[old] Janice]

I greatly enjoy using both machines and find that while I do get a better workout on the rower, with having had illness, I can't do it every day at an intensity I'm happy with (2:05/2:10 vs 2:30). I have no problem hopping the elliptical on these days and getting an equally good work out, that just takes 10 minutes longer and has burned my calories a bit less virgously. <br /><br />I think it also helps to do something besides rowing a couple times of week (strength training, running, biking, swimming) to work other muscles and the same muscles somewhat different. I feel I work some muscles harder on the ellipticial (lower legs, hips and buns) than I do on the erg.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-csabour+Nov 29 2005, 12:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(csabour @ Nov 29 2005, 12:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... +harKOD2IA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... 2IA</a><br /><br />interesting article i plucked out of row2k.com.<br /><br />the chart near the bottom gives an interesting evaluation of all of the machines. eliptical  uses more energy than C2 and the runner more than the eliptical...<br /><br />this is really hard to prove eitherway.  the energy exerted on the erg depends on your technique and your intensity.<br /><br />i'd like to hear what you have to say. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The article is requiring a log-in, so I didn't read it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen similar stuff.<br /><br />First the title:<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Best in Gym<br />By CHRISTIAN DeBENEDETTI<br />Published: November 24, 2005<br />Experts evaluate cardio workout machines. But are the most popular ones at the health club also the most effective? </td></tr></table><br /><br />The "experts" are often not so expert at all, and the use of equipment that requires a learned skill is a confounding factor. i.e. We have discussed before how we see the gym rower at a SR=30 and a 3:00+ pace, which is of course "too easy" and virtually impossible for someone rowing with anything approaching reasonable skill. Using a nordic Trak would be similar, I'v never spent enough time to be proficient at it and didn't really get a good workout. OTOH - walking up stairs (stepper), Eliptical trainer (cycling/stepper hybrid), Spinning (cycling) are all things that most folks can take to without any training and in some cases the thing even keeps moving for you. Ha, now that could be fun, and eliptical trainer that was motorized and we get to strap the person to it. <br /><br />Why not just go with the electro-shock muscle builders?

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 29 2005, 11:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 29 2005, 11:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-csabour+Nov 29 2005, 12:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(csabour @ Nov 29 2005, 12:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... +harKOD2IA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... 2IA</a><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The article is requiring a log-in, so I didn't read it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen similar stuff.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Try this userid <i>bugmenot95</i> with this password <i>bugmenot95</i><br />(I picked that up from <a href='http://www.bugmenot.com)' target='_blank'>http://www.bugmenot.com)</a>

[[old] H_2O]

<!--QuoteBegin-tditmar+Nov 29 2005, 11:37 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tditmar @ Nov 29 2005, 11:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But what about this comment, I am curious as well:<br /><br />Heart rate- same<br />Perceived exertion-less <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />UFCPA was on a cruise ship vacation.<br />This is very stressful in addition to being unhealthy. He almost certainly had food poisening or some other infection (tainted water, insufficient hygiene by the crew etc.).<br /><br />This stress elevated his heart rate at modest work load thusa the perceived exertion.<br /><br />UFCPA:<br /><br />From your description I see that you are doing the same workout day in day out.<br />This is almost completely useless. You can reach a much higher level of fitness by varying the workouts and including some high intensity workouts. THESE ARE HEALTHY!<br /><br />Why don't you get one of the free training programs here such as the Wolverine Plan or the C2 UK training guide (recommended even if you decide to follow the Wolverine Plan).<br />Likwise I recommend Xeno's rowing DVDs (for proper technique). This with a C2 erg will cost you less than 1000 USD and once you are fit you will never ever mention the elliptical again.<br />

[[old] H_2O]

<!--QuoteBegin-csabour+Nov 29 2005, 03:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(csabour @ Nov 29 2005, 03:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... +harKOD2IA' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... 2IA</a><br /><br />i'd like to hear what you have to say.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The "experts" made the elliptical trainer "the winner by a solid margin".<br />However it is unclear if the elliptical trainer provides a good workout:<br /><br />>>Used correctly, an elliptical trainer works the muscles of the central core as well as the lower body, although some experts think research is needed to determine how hard a workout its users really get.<br /> "These devices are not always effective in providing much resistance to movement," said Edward F. Coyle, the director of the Human Performance Laboratory at the University of Texas at Austin. "People seem to be able to move effortlessly." <br />But for the most part the panel of experts felt that the elliptical was the best all-around choice.<<<br /><br />The rowing machine was not such a good choice as these machines<br />"demand an intensity of effort that many exercisers find too challenging".<br /><br />In summary the elliptical trainer is the best choice ----- for the manufacturer of these machines<br />and the "experts" retained by him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] ufcpa]

Thanks for all of the comments, and the link to the NYTimes article. <br /><br />Regarding H_20's comments, I'll offer the following. First, I would consider myself to be "fit", which obviously means different things to different people. I'm 34, 6'1" tall, weigh 167 lbs, have a resting heart rate of 41. While my erg time/distance is not the best, I'll clarify that my drag setting is consistently at about 9.5 (yes, I've read the debates about proper use of the drag setting). <br /><br />I appreciate and will follow-up on your recommendation re: checking out the various training programs available, although my perception based on the little reading I've done is that they're great for alleviating boredom, but not a "must have" for maximizing your workout. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't need a training program in order to occupy myself on the machine- I watch tv, listen to music, etc. <br /><br />My typical C2 workout, as described at the beginning of my thread, is relatively high in intensity, based on my heart rate during the session (average 81% of max, based on the standard formula). I disagree w/ H_20's comment that my daily 45 min on the erg is almost completely useless. That amount of time at 80+% of max HR clearly provides health benfits.<br /><br />I agree that it certainly seems that the C2 is a better workout, based on how I feel after the exercise (call it "fatigued"). The problem I have reconciling is that my heart rate is roughly the same on both machines, but I feel less exertion on the ellip. Forget about the calorie burn- who knows which is more accurate? I guess one other consideration is that the erg calorie calc is based on a 150 lb male, so I'm 12% heavier than the std. male, and should therefore burn more calories. This would make the cal burn much closer.<br /><br />One last thing, while I'm completely devoted to my daily erg workout, I've got to say that the elliptical, particularly the Lifefitness type w/ arm movement, provides a great all over workout, and does offer, in my opinion, good variety. Unfortunately, the cost is too high for me to purchase a "once a week" machine.<br /><br />I've said enough. Glad to see so many out there are so committed to ergs!<br /><br />