Insane meters....

[Cyclingman1]

So what if people cheat on their meters rowed in these C2 challenges. There is really nothing to be gained. People have to live with their own conscience. The only distance that counts is 2K as far as racing goes. And that has to be exact with a verification method and usually done at a C2 venue.

Re: All meters should be tagged with some authorization. Let's say I row 10,005 meters at some time - maybe a good time. 10,005 meters cannot be ranked. If I calculate what my 10,000 meter would be and enter that in my logbook, I can rank the calculated time. Unfortunately, one should then delete the original 10,005 meter row to not have a double entry. The record of my having rowed a certain time is then lost. I do not see a thing wrong with such a manual entry. I have done it numerous times. I can enter an exact distance to row and that distance can be ranked and has a C2Log designation. But often I have no idea how far I'm going to row before I start.

[Dickie]

Id like to row in a public competition. Curious to see where I'd fall amongst the others. Just started rowing not to long ago but im in pretty good shape to start.

I do find it somwhat boring.. I have a 40" with surround sound mounted in front of the rower lol..! Soon I will have Row Pro there so I can participate in real time races. At least think I can.

As far as posting those numbers, someone looking for proof going against the truth, I know its the old cliche of they are only cheating themselves.. Just disheartening when I row every meter that I post, I row my ass off, and then see someeone whose posting 6X's the amount that I have up? Im not slug, but I know Im not the fastest either but I cant wrap my mind around how someone rows 1.25M meters so far. Oh well.... Guess I have some catching up to do....

Racing is fun, I competed in 3 local events this year. If you are in the US, get on WWW>RegattaCentral.com go to the Regattas tab, there they list both ERG and on-the-water regattas. They have listings that don't make the list on the C2 site.

Fred Dickie

[Bob S.]

Racing is fun, I competed in 3 local events this year. If you are in the US, get on WWW>RegattaCentral.com go to the Regattas tab, there they list both ERG and on-the-water regattas. They have listings that don't make the list on the C2 site.

Fred Dickie

That works for a lot of people in the populous areas, especially in the UK where there seems to be a lot of ergattas going on and regular regattas, OTW, as well. But there are a lot us out in the sparsely populated areas that are a long way from any possible public competitions. For me it is 270 miles to the nearest one that I know of (Long Beach). However, if I were keen on competitions other than the C-Bs and C-B qualifying ergattas, I figure that I could have taken up racing on RowPro, which seems to have some sort of validation (although it can probably be gamed just like the C2 V-code was gamed).

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

figure that I could have taken up racing on RowPro, which seems to have some sort of validation (although it can probably be gamed just like the C2 V-code was gamed).

Bob S.

Probably not. The RowPro system is probably the best and the only way round it is to have someone else row it for you on your rower if your using the software.

If you have a team challenge like the RowPro team does you should be made to row every metre online. You can still set-up a row by yourself any time of day or night, any distance and any duration you like. The big difference is that everyone can see you have actually done the row in the results and you can see the pace. There are no excuses, you have the rower, you have a PM3 or PM4 and you have the software and its easier to upload to the C2 Website from the RowPro Log than any other system. One mouse right click and select it and your done.

The problem is we still have cheats. The last Challenge I did only 2 of the top 10 finishers rowed every single metre online and only another couple rowed some of it online. The top finishers never rowed a SINGLE metre online, why doesn't that surprise me ?

If you say I should not have a problem with that then I would say you have never done a 30 day challenge and gone so hard you left your guts on the floor at the end of it. THEN see how you feel about being denied placings by people who cannot prove they have even sat on thier Erg.

Reality is the systems are already in place to make it fair for everyone. The way it is run at present is like running the Olympics without drugs testing, what would be the point of entering if your not prepaired to take the drugs ? you don't enter because you know your not going to make a podium finish. Also don't give me its just a personal challenge crap, to push yourself to the limit you need motivation and the motivation is a top 10 finish, or at the very least a direct refletion of the work you have put in.

My big question is, why doesn't Concept 2 want to address the problem ? why cannot they run one Challenge a year that utilises C2Log, Rowpro and IND_V results only ?

[Bob S.]

figure that I could have taken up racing on RowPro, which seems to have some sort of validation (although it can probably be gamed just like the C2 V-code was gamed).

Bob S.

Probably not. The RowPro system is probably the best and the only way round it is to have someone else row it for you on your rower if your using the software.

Well that was the ploy I had in mind, i.e. having a ringer(s) do it. In the 2k incident that I mentioned, it was done by a rotating team of top rowers who just wanted to prove that it could be done. It showed up as a C2 validated time that was faster than the open world record at the time - several years ago.

That prank proved that the C2 validation could be circumvented and I have no doubt but that it could be done with RowPro as well. For those in the slower categories, it is less complicated. As you said, you can just have someone row for you.

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

Point taken but is it not better to have at least some sort of system in place to minimise the cheating or make it much harder to cheat ?

Personally I don't think I could arrange to have a que of world class rowers standing at my door ready to go for a whole 30 days for starters.

The current system is just open to blatent cheats. Concept 2 needs to drop the manual entry system unless the result includes the IND_V code and I guarantee the whole rankings tables would change as well.

Suggested the same to Digital Rowing, they need a rankings for the most metres done online only each season. Not only would it remove most of the cheating it would also encourage more people to row online, even if it was a quick row set-up with just them rowing.The big advantage here is that you don't have to upload anything in terms of your results, Digital Rowing already has the result the instant you finish your row.

My big hope for the future is that C2 move to the likes of an ipad or android device as the monitor and you have a unique identifier (use the MAC address for example) in your App so that only results you obtain on your device can be associated with your online results. You may not even need to upload your results, your device could simply syncronise with the C2 server the next time you get a wireless connection. This would have a dramatic change in both the accuracy and the total number of people in the rankings and annual metres boards.

[Cyclist2]

It's just like anything these days - you can high-tech it to the max, or just go enjoy the activity. I write down (with pen and paper) my workouts from the my two ergs' PM2 or PM3 to enter into my online log book. I still only have a spoke magnet monitor on my bike (no GPS, Strava, etc.). I don't want to complicate my life with tech "toys". My wife, on the other hand, has all the gizmos and enjoys, and gets frustrated with, them. We both still get a workout. I question the times and distances I see sometimes, but it is just a passing curiosity. By looking at the rankings, Nonathlon, and challenge results, I am able get a good idea of where I stand within my peer group. That is all I'm looking for. I discount the anomalies.

[Bob S.]

@ Carl. I agree with the points you made in your response. But even with software that provides validation for all meters rowed, not just specific events, indoor rowing machines do not have user identification. For piling up lots of meters for a week, month, or year, it is not necessary to have any high powered rowing talent around. Just invite family members and neighbors to use your machine for exercise. They don't even have to know that you would be getting the credit for all their meters. It is probably possible to come up with user identification, like handle bar fingerprint registration or a built in video monitor, but for such a miniscule market (the challenge participants) it is economically pointless.

Bob S.

[Dickie]

Point taken but is it not better to have at least some sort of system in place to minimise the cheating or make it much harder to cheat ?

Personally I don't think I could arrange to have a que of world class rowers standing at my door ready to go for a whole 30 days for starters.

The current system is just open to blatent cheats. Concept 2 needs to drop the manual entry system unless the result includes the IND_V code and I guarantee the whole rankings tables would change as well.

Suggested the same to Digital Rowing, they need a rankings for the most metres done online only each season. Not only would it remove most of the cheating it would also encourage more people to row online, even if it was a quick row set-up with just them rowing.The big advantage here is that you don't have to upload anything in terms of your results, Digital Rowing already has the result the instant you finish your row.

My big hope for the future is that C2 move to the likes of an ipad or android device as the monitor and you have a unique identifier (use the MAC address for example) in your App so that only results you obtain on your device can be associated with your online results. You may not even need to upload your results, your device could simply syncronise with the C2 server the next time you get a wireless connection. This would have a dramatic change in both the accuracy and the total number of people in the rankings and annual metres boards.

Never happen!!!!!

Think about what your asking. I just checked and there are over 46000 current members. If c2 does as you request, that number will fall to significantly less than 5000 and spread over 2 genders, 2 weight classes and approximately 14 age groups, there would not be very much of a ranking list. C2 is not out to satisfy your version of fairness, they are out to sell product and I bet that the online rankings have sold a lot of ergs. I bought mine because of the online rankings, log, challenges and community, in that order.

As I said in a previous post, this topic makes the rounds every couple of years and the outcome has never changed. I have noticed that there are only a handful of people who take your position each time it comes up. When you weigh a handful against 46000, well you do the math.

For what it's worth, I would prefer there was no cheating and if I found someone was cheating, I would call them out on it.

Your choices are simple, you can do as Bob S. suggests and just go along with it. You could start your own community with a website, validation etc. or you can choose not to participate if it bothers you that much. I found it was better to accept the problems than forgo the benefits.

Fred Dickie

[Citroen]

You can send an email to rowing@concept2.com to have them investigate any spurious entries in the honour system, but as Dickie says it's not going to change.

With a simple audio file (as input) to a PM3/PM4 I can generate any valid, verified result I desire. It's not difficult to record the tacho signal, muck about with it and play it back.

[Carl Watts]

You can send an email to rowing@concept2.com to have them investigate any spurious entries in the honour system, but as Dickie says it's not going to change.

With a simple audio file (as input) to a PM3/PM4 I can generate any valid, verified result I desire. It's not difficult to record the tacho signal, muck about with it and play it back.

I can think of a way thats even easier being a repair guy on the monitors, however its only going to work on the Model C rower.

Still far to hard for the cheats though, far easier just to type in insane metres to try and beat the next guy also typing in insane metres and then tell themselves that they could have done that.

Perhaps someone at Concept 2 will actually sit down one day and think about the math on how many hours a day you need to sit on the rower at 2:40 pace which they must be rowing at or even slower and you see how stupid the numbers look, especailly when you you see its 365 days a year without a break.

46,000 members of what ? only 5034 people worldwide can be bothered entering their results on the annual metres board so I would say that there is massive room for improvement from a more automated system that significantly reduces cheating wouldn't you ? We have more ergs than that in New Zealand ! like I said, time to integrate the monitor into an i-pad or Android tablet, simply run an App to replace the monitor, get a full size colour screen and connect via bluetooth to the tach sender. Upload automatically. The technology is already here and I'm using it at work, bluetooth printer and bluetooth barcode scanner both connencted to a medical PAT tester.

Never mind, the technology will catchup one day, for now I just row live online with others as I know they are actually rowing !

[chrisa770]

I personally agree with Carl that all meters be taken with a grain of salt. I enter all challenges with it being a challenge to myself and no one else. It gives me a self pat on the back by completing them. I'm sure that's what the C2 founding fathers have in mind. The challenges are great motivational tools and nothing more. Good rowing!

[jamesg]

It's been noted that some of the highest milers are 70 yo ladies. If they'll do that to our honor boards, what mightn't they do to our soup?

[Cyclist2]

The U.S. C2 challenges are about number of meters rowed. If you want a more "competition" oriented challenge, try the Rowing Company Challenge Series; http://therowingcompany.com/challengeseries/. It has varying, shorter, distances over the course of nine months. That one keeps me somewhat motivated to get a workout when I row, rather than just logging meters. And it's a challenge just to stick with it for months and complete the whole series. It would be fun to see more U.S. participants.

[Dickie]

You might also try the Cross Team Challenge.

http://www.c2ctc.com/

Fred Dickie