Bone Health

[[old] hirsmar]

Although I walk and jog, mostly I erg during the winter months for exercise and training for the dragon boat season. I am aware of the need for weight bearing exercise to maintain bone density. Does anyone know if exercising on the erg is considered weight bearing?

[[old] ulu]

It would not be considered weight bearing, but it would be good for osteoporosis.<br /><br />Rowing will maintain your muscle mass, there is a correlation between muscle mass and bone density. (not direct).<br /><br />Hibernating bears maintain bone density by shivering.<br /><br />Jim<br />(This not considered to be medical advice, caveats, etc....)

[[old] Byron Drachman]

Here is a quote from this discussion at the C2 website:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/womenw ... orosis.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/womenw ... asp</a><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may still want to keep some walking, running or stepping in your fitness program for variety and extra insurance. but you can feel good about the fact that Rowing, in combination with strength training, not only increases bone density but has the added benefit of increasing overall fitness, strength and flexibility. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />The studies were done on women, but I think it's safe to assume that rowing along with some strength training or weight bearing exercise should help prevent osteoporosis in men also. There was a previous thread on osteoporosis, but I couldn't find it. <br /><br />I am unable to prove this, but I think that Xeno's upper body workout DVD should count towards strength training. <br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[[old] woolsmith]

So, do you think that anything above a certain watt level would be considered weight bearing, since there's a good amount of force with that? I would think some good hard pulls with some interval work might help to keep some bone mineral density intact. What do y'all think?<br /><br />--Jen in WI

[[old] grams]

My unscientific personal comment: <br /><br />I can't do weight-lifting due to joint problems so I erg a lot of endurance sessions, and take 1 calcium 'horse pill' a day. My bone density is double the average for 63 old ladies. And that was calculated when I was not eating any dairy products. I was consuming a lot of raw leafy greens instead. <br /><br />Initially was taking 3 calcium pills a day and it actually gave me problems. I think the erging is what makes the difference for me. In my opinion folks in good shape have a better metabolism and utilize their food nutrients better.<br /><br />grams

[[old] Xeno]

I came across a text of a British Medical Journal article. It stated that walking did not help prevent hip fractures, BUT "sculling" does. I remember well since few people know that sculling means rowing.<br /><br />In my humble and non medical opinion, as soon as you feel a resistance from the flywheel travel through your arms, body, and over your legs to the footboard, you are performing a weight bearing exercise.<br /><br />Thank you Byron for your comment on the Upper Body Stregnth DVD.

[[old] woolsmith]

Thanks, Xeno, that makes sense to me. I'd think that a harder drive would be the equivalent of "lifting" a heavier weight because of the work the legs are doing in addition to the arms holding the weight, then following through to the finish. And the added muscle tone helps to keep somewhat of a tension on the skeletal system throughout the day?<br /><br />And Grams is proof it works, hey? And I think you're absolutely correct, Grams, a body in decent shape is going to work more efficiently, so all systems should be working more efficiently as a result. I'm in my "perimenopause" phase, so this is all good to know.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />--Jen<br /> <br />P.S. Did anyone see the NY Times article (from today, I believe) about the 10 top cardiovascular exercise machines? The rower ranked #2 after ellipticals. Of course, imho, rowers should be #1. <br />

[[old] tjod]

<!--QuoteBegin-woolsmith+Nov 25 2005, 06:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(woolsmith @ Nov 25 2005, 06:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks, Xeno, that makes sense to me.  I'd think that a harder drive would be the equivalent of "lifting" a heavier weight because of the work the legs are doing in addition to the arms holding the weight, then following through to the finish.  And the added muscle tone helps to keep somewhat of a tension on the skeletal system throughout the day?<br /><br />And Grams is proof it works, hey?    And I think you're absolutely correct, Grams, a body in decent shape is going to work more efficiently, so all systems should be working more efficiently as a result.  I'm in my "perimenopause" phase, so this is all good to know.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />--Jen<br /> <br />P.S.  Did anyone see the NY Times article (from today, I believe) about the 10 top cardiovascular exercise machines?  The rower ranked #2 after ellipticals.  Of course, imho, rowers should be #1.    <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jen;<br /><br />I found that article you mentioned. There was a little slide show along with it. One of the CONS for rowing machines was " Another disadvantage is that rowing machines “tend to place the exerciser low to the ground” where it’s “more difficult to watch TV or check out the other clients.”" Ha! Sounds like a bonus to me 8-)<br /><br />Here's the link if anyone is interested<br /><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/24/fashi ... tness.html' target='_blank'>Best in Gym</a>

[[old] BobD]

The article is apparently no longer accessible

[[old] woolsmith]

Hey there, tjod!<br /><br />Yeah, the two cons being the facts that the rowers were low to the ground and the fact that folks had to "work so hard," being as it gives such a full-body workout. I guess if folks starting out didn't have the stamina for it, they lost interest?? Seems to me though, if you want to do it right, especially where fitness (and much of life) is concerned, the easy way out usually doesn't get ya too far! <br /><br />The wording was "rowing machines demand an intensity of effort that many exercisers find too challenging." We'll have to sic Grams on 'em, she'll set 'em straight. Gee, I'd think that would be a good selling point--get the most benefit out of the time you put into it! And isn't erging as easy or as difficult as you want to make it? Like, if ya don't wanna work so hard, don't pull so hard? Yup, some points in the article had me scratching my head.<br /><br />BobD: I accessed the article from SportsGeezer. It was still there this a.m., and here's that link: <a href='http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeeze ... te_fi.html' target='_blank'>http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeeze ... fi.html</a> <br /><br />You'll have to click on the link he has within the article to get to the NYT article. If you're not already registered with NYT, then you'll have to do so before you can read their articles.<br /><br />Have a great wkd, everyone!<br />--Jen

[[old] tjod]

<!--QuoteBegin-woolsmith+Nov 26 2005, 06:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(woolsmith @ Nov 26 2005, 06:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey there, tjod!<br /><br />Yeah, the two cons being the facts that the rowers were low to the ground and the fact that folks had to "work so hard," being as it gives such a full-body workout.  I guess if folks starting out didn't have the stamina for it, they lost interest??  Seems to me though, if you want to do it right, especially where fitness (and much of life) is concerned, the easy way out usually doesn't get ya too far!    <br /><br />The wording was "rowing machines demand an intensity of effort that many exercisers find too challenging."    We'll have to sic Grams on 'em, she'll set 'em straight.    Gee, I'd think that would be a good selling point--get the most benefit out of the time you put into it!  And isn't erging as easy or as difficult as you want to make it?    Like, if ya don't wanna work so hard, don't pull so hard?  Yup, some points in the article had me scratching my head.<br /><br /><br />--Jen <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe, to the untrained observer, light effort looks a lot like heavy effort since the general mechanics of the strokes are similar ? <br /><br />tj<br /><br />

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I came across a text of a British Medical Journal article. It stated that walking did not help prevent hip fractures, BUT "sculling" does. I remember well since few people know that sculling means rowing. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi Xeno, <br /><br />I always suspected it, but it's nice to know there are studies to confirm it. I did a Google search on osteoporosis+sculling+walking+hip+fracture<br /><br />Here is one of the articles:<br /><br /><a href='http://preventdisease.com/news/articles ... _hip.shtml' target='_blank'>http://preventdisease.com/news/articles ... tml</a><br /><br />There are more on the subject. Of course, we all realize we have to sift through articles and studies and decide which ones seem reasonable. <br /><br />By the way, on your upper body workout DVD using the C2, you mention that it's nice to have good triceps if you want to bang your fist on a table to make a point. Another advantage of some upper body strength is that loading boats off racks, carrying them, lifting them out of the water, etc. becomes easier. A good racing shell doesn't weight much, but some of the heavier open water boats, my first choice if the water is very rough, can be a little tricky for a lightweight. Even though you can do these manuevers using very little upper body, it's still good to have some extra upper body fitness.<br /><br />My favorite moment on the upper body fitness DVD: When we're doing the biceps and you say, "Now acclerate for three." At this point I can barely move the handle. What a great workout.<br /><br />Byron<br /><br /><br />

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-woolsmith+Nov 25 2005, 07:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(woolsmith @ Nov 25 2005, 07:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks, Xeno, that makes sense to me.  I'd think that a harder drive would be the equivalent of "lifting" a heavier weight because of the work the legs are doing in addition to the arms holding the weight, then following through to the finish.  And the added muscle tone helps to keep somewhat of a tension on the skeletal system throughout the day?<br /><br />And Grams is proof it works, hey?    And I think you're absolutely correct, Grams, a body in decent shape is going to work more efficiently, so all systems should be working more efficiently as a result.  I'm in my "perimenopause" phase, so this is all good to know.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />--Jen<br /> <br />P.S.  Did anyone see the NY Times article (from today, I believe) about the 10 top cardiovascular exercise machines?  The rower ranked #2 after ellipticals.  Of course, imho, rowers should be #1.    <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I saw it too!<br />I read the pros and cons. The cons made sense, too low and you cannot scope out the rest of the clientele. That was the quote of a Dr.

[[old] woolsmith]

Maybe, to the untrained observer, light effort looks a lot like heavy effort since the general mechanics of the strokes are similar ? <br /><br />tj<br /><br /><br />Interesting observation, tj. <br /><br />There's an interesting, humorous thread on one of the other forums, something about how some folks in gyms use improper technique and how funny this makes them look. One example was called "Ego Meathead," and this is an overly muscular dude who has the damper set up to 10, 50spm, with something wild like 4:30-plus splits. Someone said it looked like these types were "giving birth," with all the huffing and puffing going on. Another example had a gym user doing the rowing technique kinda/sorta in reverse--arms, back, legs then legs, back, arms.... Aw man, that's gotta hurt! They had some other humorous examples, but on a more serious note, this makes me wonder about how folks are using improper technique and how this could be giving rowers a bad rep. <br /><br />So maybe ergs are best for nerds like me, hey? Like, the brain power it takes to row with the proper technique...because it DOES take some concentration. Yeah, listen to me say that, because I have ADD! And I gotta say though, I have to check in with my technique regularly because I find I am getting sloppy at times, especially when I'm getting fatigued towards the end of a workout. I guess in that sense there's no such thing as "mindless rowing." I would guess that there's a lot of folks who prefer to have minimal-brain-usage exercise equipment. <br /><br />Otoh, maybe some gyms could be running some tv screens with videos on how to properly use some of their equipment, like C2's technique video. Never having gone to an athletic club or a gym before, I don't know the culture, so maybe those places are already doing that.<br /><br />--Jen in WI

[[old] tjod]

<!--QuoteBegin-woolsmith+Nov 26 2005, 06:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(woolsmith @ Nov 26 2005, 06:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe, to the untrained observer, light effort looks a lot  like heavy effort since the general mechanics of the strokes are  similar ?  <br /><br />tj<br /><br /><br />Interesting observation, tj.  <br /><br />There's an interesting, humorous thread on one of the other forums, something about how some folks in gyms use improper technique and how funny this makes them look.  One example was called "Ego Meathead," and this is an overly muscular dude who has the damper set up to 10, 50spm, with something wild like 4:30-plus splits.  Someone said it looked like these types were "giving birth," with all the huffing and puffing going on.  Another example had a gym user doing the rowing technique kinda/sorta in reverse--arms, back, legs then legs, back, arms....  Aw man, that's gotta hurt!  They had some other humorous examples, but on a more serious note, this makes me wonder about how folks are using improper technique and how this could be giving rowers a bad rep. <br /><br />So maybe ergs are best for nerds like me, hey?    Like, the brain power it takes to row with the proper technique...because it DOES take some concentration.  Yeah, listen to me say that, because I have ADD!    And I gotta say though, I have to check in with my technique regularly because I find I am getting sloppy at times, especially when I'm getting fatigued towards the end of a workout.  I guess in that sense there's no such thing as "mindless rowing."  I would guess that there's a lot of folks who prefer to have minimal-brain-usage exercise equipment. <br /><br />Otoh, maybe some gyms could be running some tv screens with videos on how to properly use some of their equipment, like C2's technique video.  Never having gone to an athletic club or a gym before, I don't know the culture, so maybe those places are already doing that.<br /><br />--Jen in WI <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Jen;<br /><br />I've been following that thread with great interest and amusement since my erstwhile trainer at the gym was probably a "meathead"<br /><br />I joined a gym as one of my many attempts to lose weight and get in shape. I was NOT impressed even though the facilities were nice. The staff was friendly ... to the young athletic types, and not to old out of shape geezers like me. The best thing that happened though is that I did get some time in on a Model C. In retrospect, the trainer had little knowledge of how to use it, but I am grateful for the exposure. I think your idea of a video with proper technique is a good one - they had the screens and the sound all set up - they just need the media.<br /><br />Eventually I quit the gym, since I was hurting myself with their training plan and no one responded to repeated requests to re-evaluate. I did realize that the rower was a [potentially] good workout, and decided to buy a Model D. Bring the mountain to Mohammed? So far I am very happy with it and hope to meet the holiday challenge on the "weigh".<br /><br />tj