Asthma - Do I Need To Change My Training?

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-mallard+Oct 6 2005, 07:21 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mallard @ Oct 6 2005, 07:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guys, Guys, Guys ......... !!!!!<br /><br />As the person who started this thread I feel qualified to but in at this point and say thank you for all of your comments.  I would like to think that I am well educated, intelligent and have enough common sense to take on board comments such as John's without immediately adopting suggestions without further investigation.  I have not yet had a chance to look into the breathing techniques mentioned, but by coincidence had wondered recently about the effect of holding ones breath on tight breathing.  I was holding my breath to try and stop hiccups the other day, and the first breath I took after releasing was a lovely deep one and I just started to wonder why.  I shall certainly be looking into this further, but not without seeking medical advice too.  Chill out!      <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Your point is well-taken as to your own personal situation. <br /><br />The problem is that once a question is asked on these forums, the answers are available to anyone who opens the thread. The only advice that is "personal" is advice dispensed in a private message. If it is dispensed in a public forum it becomes "general" and may be picked up and followed by anyone who reads it. Your exposure to medical knowledge is, I suspect, much greater than most people's. No one intended to insult your intelligence or your education. Nevertheless, we have some very young participants on these forums (high school students, perhaps some even younger) who may not have the same sophistication as you. You are lucky to have a second opinion right in the family. Most people don't, and they are the ones to whom I directed my warning.<br /><br />There can much more to asthma than simple spasmodic constriction of the bronchial tubes -- in some cases, for example, it also triggers massive spontaneous flows of mucus in the lungs as a consequence of histamine overproduction being triggered by allergens. No amount of "breathholding" will do anything to change that. <br /><br />Granted that some asthma can be cause by the things John Rupp lists and that in some cases, the solutions he proposes may work. The problem is that John assumes (erroneously) that all asthma is just like what he dealt with as a five-year-old child. He then dismisses all drug treatments for asthma, equating users of inhalers or other asthma medications to drug addicts ("druggies" is presumably a pejorative term). That conclusion is rooted in sheer ignorance. I for one have never heard of a leukotriene inhibitor addict, and although I am no expert, I can't imagine that anyone else has either.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Oct 6 2005, 11:16 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Oct 6 2005, 11:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There can much more to asthma than simple spasmodic constriction of the bronchial tubes -- in some cases, for example, it also triggers massive spontaneous flows of mucus in the lungs as a consequence of histamine overproduction being triggered by allergens.  No amount of "breathholding" will do anything to change that.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You are so wrong and again showing your ignorance.<br /><br />Mucus is produced by the lungs as a means to try and conserve the co2 buffers, that are being washed out by the grossly excessive overbreathing.<br /><br />How much of your drug "treatments" for asthma have worked????<br /><br />Answer: NONE OF THEM.<br /><br />The same doctors that give you all those drugs will at the same time tell you that asthma is not curable.<br />

[[old] bmoore]

John,<br /><br />I discovered I had a mild form of asthma last year when I complained about wheezing at night. My doctor prescribed Advair and said I should get a flu shot this year. As with my back problem, I'm interested in understanding this more.<br /><br />Please post some links to support your comments. I'm not interested in a straw man argument or an individual opinion. I'd like to see approaches to dealing with this problem.<br /><br />Thanks.

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Oct 6 2005, 01:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Oct 6 2005, 01:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Oct 6 2005, 11:16 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Oct 6 2005, 11:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There can much more to asthma than simple spasmodic constriction of the bronchial tubes -- in some cases, for example, it also triggers massive spontaneous flows of mucus in the lungs as a consequence of histamine overproduction being triggered by allergens.  No amount of "breathholding" will do anything to change that.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You are so wrong and again showing your ignorance.<br /><br />Mucus is produced by the lungs as a means to try and conserve the co2 buffers, that are being washed out by the grossly excessive overbreathing.<br /><br />How much of your drug "treatments" for asthma have worked????<br /><br />Answer: NONE OF THEM.<br /><br />The same doctors that give you all those drugs will at the same time tell you that asthma is not curable. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />John,<br /><br />If you have a "cure" for asthma sitting in your garage next to your new slides, I hope you will publicize it for the benefit of the millions of people in the United States and elsewhere who are being "misled" by the medical profession.<br /><br />Let's start with basics: Do you extend diplomatic recognition to the concept of "allergy"? If not, why not? If so, do you agree that some asthma is allergic in origin? Or do you limit any recognition of allergies to non-asthmatic reactions, such as the stereotypical red eyes, sneezing, and runny nose of "hay fever"? Do you believe that some or all allergic reactions can be suppressed by non-pharmaceutical means? If so, please explain which reactions can be suppressed and how. Do you include asthmatic allergic reactions in the category that can be so suppressed? What is the mechanism of suppression?<br /><br />Do you contend that all asthma is, in effect, psychosomatic? That is, do breathing difficulties induce stress that induces further breathing difficulties that induce additional stress in a continuous feedback loop? <br /><br />By "grossly excessive overbreathing," do you mean hyperventilation? Do you contend that some or all asthma is the result of hyperventilation?<br /><br />Are you aware of any scientific studies (preferably published in a peer-reviewed journal) that support any of the positions that you take? Please don't point me in the direction of any publications written or inspired by L. Ron Hubbard or Mary Baker Eddy. If that's where you're coming from, then this is not a debate about science or medicine.<br /><br />Educate me, John. I wait with bated breath. (Sorry folks, I just couldn't resist that one.)<br /><br />

[[old] afolpe]

John's information is such patent idiocy that I'm not quite sure why I'm even bothering to entry the fray here but, in the interest of clarity:<br /><br />Gas exchange, including oxygen and carbon dioxide, occurs in the alveolar spaces. Mucous is produced in the bronchioles, bronchi and trachea. There is no mucous in the alveolar spaces, and there is no gas exchange in the bronchioles, bronchi or trachea. Mucous has lots of interesting functions, principally protective, but assisting in dealing with "carbon dioxide buffers" is not one of them.<br /><br />I might also point out, as a surgical pathologist, that asthma has rather distinct pathologic features, which we can observe under a microscope, and which are most definitely not simply psychosomatic or purely in the imagination of greedy pulmonologists and pharmaceutical representatives.<br /><br />John: Please go back to giving erroneous information about rowing, and leave the medical stuff alone. <br /><br />Andrew<br /><br />

[[old] Alissa]

Thank you Andrew--Nicely done!<br /><br />Alissa

[[old] bmoore]

<!--QuoteBegin-Alissa+Oct 6 2005, 05:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alissa @ Oct 6 2005, 05:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thank you Andrew--Nicely done!<br /><br />Alissa <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'll second that!

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-afolpe+Oct 6 2005, 04:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(afolpe @ Oct 6 2005, 04:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->John's information is such patent idiocy that I'm not quite sure why I'm even bothering to entry the fray here but, in the interest of clarity:<br /><br />Gas exchange, including oxygen and carbon dioxide, occurs in the alveolar spaces. Mucous is produced in the bronchioles, bronchi and trachea. There is no mucous in the alveolar spaces, and there is no gas exchange in the bronchioles, bronchi or trachea. Mucous has lots of interesting functions, principally protective, but assisting in dealing with "carbon dioxide buffers" is not one of them.<br /><br />I might also point out, as a surgical pathologist, that asthma has rather distinct pathologic features, which we can observe under a microscope, and which are most definitely not simply psychosomatic or purely in the imagination of greedy pulmonologists and pharmaceutical representatives.<br /><br />John: Please go back to giving erroneous information about rowing, and leave the medical stuff alone. <br /><br />Andrew <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Well, Andrew, I don't know whether a medical degree and professional knowledge would be persuasive in this particular case, but it is a valiant attempt on your part. You may, however, be tilting at windmills (or windbags, as the case may be). In any event, thank you for joining the discussion.

[[old] John Rupp]

Now here we have Andrew Folpe, an expert in giving dangerous medical advice.<br /><br />I am sure that Ray and the rest of the gullible people and so eager to please. will embrace such dangerous medical advice wholeheartedly.<br /><br />Supply and demand -- the world is back in balance again!

[[old] John Rupp]

Bill,<br /><br />Shame on you, asking me for some assistance then seconding additional mal-formed bad advice. It is very important to use the word "mal" when such advice is coming from a "medical expert".<br /><br />My philosphy about your request is to provide assistance only where such helpfulness is going to be accepted and appreciated.<br /><br />There are those in need who appreciate and put such helpfulness to good use. I will give my pearls to them.

[[old] afolpe]

"When logic and proportion<br />Have fallen softly dead<br />And the White Knight is talking backwards<br />And the Red Queen's off with her head<br />Remember what the doormouse said:<br />"Feed your Head<br />Feed your Head!"<br /><br />I'm not quite sure what exactly about this thread made me think of that, but it seems rather appropriate.<br /><br />John:<br /><br />Really, you need to re-think your whole method of debate/discussion/whatever you think you are doing. I very well could be giving medical advice here, as it happens that I am qualified to do that. But I'm not, because I don't think this is an appropriate forum for me to do so. I do think it is reasonable for me to point out some fairly elementary facts of microscopic anatomy and pathology, since you have misstated them, in any attempt to justify your own rather fallacious opinions. I'm not really sure what leads you to immediately leap to these sort of ad hominem attacks- it makes me wish I had paid better attention during my Psychiatry rotations. <br /><br />Andrew

[[old] bmoore]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Oct 6 2005, 08:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Oct 6 2005, 08:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bill,<br /><br />Shame on you, asking me for some assistance then seconding additional mal-formed bad advice.  It is very important to use the word "mal" when such advice is coming from a "medical expert".<br /><br />My philosphy about your request is to provide assistance only where such helpfulness is going to be accepted and appreciated.<br /><br />There are those in need who appreciate and put such helpfulness to good use.  I will give my pearls to them. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I asked you for evidence to support your statements, and then seconded the sentiment that the comment was nicely done. I didn't intend these to be opposing statements which would negate my original request for evidence. Don't get caught up in the technicallities of my requests on this forum. I simply asked you to "prove it". I believe this is a reasonable request.<br /><br />I also didn't ask for "assistance" from you. You have conducted an "experiment of one" as a child, but did not deal with this as an adult. I wanted sufficient, competent evidence to support your claims, and I was concerned that it might simply be either your extrapolating your experience to the rest of the world or interpreting some alternative research in an illogical manner. Clarification and evidence is all I ask. If these are indeed your own "pearls", then I'd like to know that as well.

[[old] John Rupp]

Andrew,<br /><br />I used to have fallacious opinions, for example that there might be some small bit of honesty or integrity in the medical fraternity.<br /><br />But alas there doesn't seem to be any so I have let go of that fallacy long ago.<br /><br />Also, you didn't "prove" anything, except that you like to stroke your own ego but really, Andrew, that is kind of self serving isn't it. <br /><br />When is the last time you cured anyone from asthma without drugs?

[[old] John Rupp]

Bill Moore,<br /><br />You are once again grossly incorrect.<br /><br />I have helped MANY many people to get rid of breathing problems.<br /><br />Is there any reason that I should "prove" that or provide any additional evidence to you?<br /><br />Absolutely NOT.<br /><br />Apparently you didn't pick up on my comment about pearls.

[[old] John Rupp]

I didn't just do an experiment on myself.<br /><br />I cured myself from asthma, in the sense that I never again had asthma since age 5.<br /><br />To the medical profession that's probably not a cure though, as they don't keep statictics on healthy people who don't take their drugs and buy into their hypocrisies.