Offbeat Question Regarding Exercise...

[[old] tditmar]

I should start off by saying I am not sure I am asking this correctly, but...<br /><br />I am curious about the effect of exercise tempo (for lack of a better way of putting it). For example, I run, erg, and lift as my primary ways of exercising. The tempo of erging however is very slow and methodical, really even at high intensity there are no real explosive movements. You can, however, be very explosive running and lifting. I am wondering what effect erging has on explosive muscles (fast twitch, I guess)? <br /><br />On the days after I exercise, I walk the hallways of work feeling like the form of exercise I did the day before. If I run sprints or even just run period, I feel like I could be fast and explosive, same after lifting. But on the days after I erg, I feel slower, less explosive, but like I could wrestle someone into submission. Is this all in my head, or is it a real effect of the exercise performed? By the way, I don't really have those thoughts in my head, but when I am aware of how my body feels the next day those are the best ways of describing it.<br /><br />The C2 is often billed as a great cross-training tool. If one were training to be a 100 meter sprinter or an O-lifter, would the C2 erg be detrimental?<br /><br />I am not training to be either of those, but curious from a physiological standpoint.

[[old] R S T]

<!--QuoteBegin-tditmar+Aug 18 2005, 09:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tditmar @ Aug 18 2005, 09:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The tempo of erging however is very slow and methodical, really even at high intensity there are no real explosive movements. You can, however, be very explosive running and lifting. I am wondering what effect erging has on explosive muscles (fast twitch, I guess)? <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />tditmar<br /><br />I tend to agree that erging is <b>not</b> explosive if you are referring to a steady rate row. <b>However</b>, for all-out sprints and PB attempts at longer, in fact ANY distance I would disagree - maybe you have not been pushing yourself hard enough?! <br /><br />I am sure others have more informed thoughts on the physiological perspective that you are inquiring about. As regards a 100m sprinter using the erg - I do not know if they do as I imagine that more 'specific' type training would be more beneficial than erging, however, surely fast interval type training would be useful in developing fast twitch fibres/muscles?<br /><br />Cheers<br />RichardT

[[old] PaulS]

I don't mean to give this short shrift, but you are going to train the muscles that you have, and while there is a cross section of fiber types that can go either "slow twitch" or "fast twitch" the proportion is mostly determined by genetics and ain't gonna change much.<br /><br />Elite rowers tend to have a high percentage of Slow twitch fibers, but not because they chose rowing, it's because rowing chose them.<br /><br />If you train aggressively and that makes you feel more aggressive, and you like that feeling, keep it up. Putting out maximum effort on the Erg can equate to doing Cleans of 200+ lbs, so it sort of falls in a unique category of "Power-endurance", not exactly a "sluggish" activity, Peak force 300lbs+ and avg force 150lbs+ for 0.5 seconds.<br /><br />Cheers!

[[old] TomR/the elder]

The following is from Stephen Seiler's web site. I believe Seiler is an exercise physiologist. <br /><br />"During my "rowing career", I have heard comments from presumably expert coaches that suggest that fast twitch fibers are important for "explosive leg drive" or "fast hands". I have tried to keep a straight face during these conversations, but this is simply wrong!. Even at high stroke rates, the contraction time of the rowing muscles is sufficiently long to allow slow twitch fibers to generate maximum force. Therefore, there is no advantage to possessing a high percentage of fast twitch fibers. To the contrary, they are conspicuously absent in the most successful rowers. I frequently blame my failure to row faster on my substantial endowment of fast fibers (verified by biopsy). "<br /><br /><a href='http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowphys.htm' target='_blank'>http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowphys.htm</a><br /><br />Tom

[[old] fdsailor]

It is my understanding that the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fibers stays fixed, i.e. it is not a function of your training. If your workout emphasizes the slow twitch muscles like the erg does, it does not effect your fast twitch muscles in either a positive or negative way. If you want to condition your fast twitch muscles, you will need to do it with something other than the erg.

[[old] tditmar]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Aug 18 2005, 08:22 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Aug 18 2005, 08:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The following is from Stephen Seiler's web site. I believe Seiler is an exercise physiologist. <br /><br />"During my "rowing career", I have heard comments from presumably expert coaches that suggest that fast twitch fibers are important for "explosive leg drive" or "fast hands". I have tried to keep a straight face during these conversations, but this is simply wrong!. Even at high stroke rates, the contraction time of the rowing muscles is sufficiently long to allow slow twitch fibers to generate maximum force. Therefore, there is no advantage to possessing a high percentage of fast twitch fibers. To the contrary, they are conspicuously absent in the most successful rowers. I frequently blame my failure to row faster on my substantial endowment of fast fibers (verified by biopsy). "<br /><br /><a href='http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowphys.htm' target='_blank'>http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/rowphys.htm</a><br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ahh, thanks for the quote. I had seen it before but forgot about it. It says exactly what I was saying. "Even at high stroke rates, the contraction time of the rowing muscles is sufficiently long to allow slow twitch fibers to generate maximum force." You may feel you are being explosive, but the flywheel mechanism increases in resistance. and just the nature of it doesn't allow you to be explosive in the same sense of doing something with bodyweight or even lifting say a barbell. I know... Duh! <br /><br />So my question was, do you think the C2 would enhance, detract, or neither the performance say of a sprinter or O-lifter? And secondly, what about working out in general, or cross-training? The answer to the first question question would probably answer the second. Or maybe another way of asking would be, if you think you are made up of mostly fast-twitch fibers is the erg possibly not the best mode of exercise for you?<br />

[[old] tditmar]

<!--QuoteBegin-fdsailor+Aug 19 2005, 11:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(fdsailor @ Aug 19 2005, 11:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is my understanding that the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fibers stays fixed, i.e. it is not a function of your training.  If your workout emphasizes the slow twitch muscles like the erg does, it does not effect your fast twitch muscles in either a positive or negative way.  If you want to condition your fast twitch muscles, you will need to do it with something other than the erg. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Don't they say the general population is roughly 50/50 fast to slow twitch? If that is so, then doesn't that mean you should be exercising more like a cross-trainer for the general population?

[[old] Canoeist]

I was part of a study at the University of Maryland in the 1970s where they were looking at fast vs. slow twich fibers in conditioned athletes. My legs tested out to be quite ordinary whilst my arms and shoulders tested out to be just about all slow twitch. I paddled canoe and my legs were not used except to get the boat to and from practice.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack

[[old] Galt]

I don't think that I own a fast twitch muscle fiber, and I love erging and rowing.<br /><br />I certainly am no exercise expert, but I will say this. When we get up to around 28 to 30 storkes per minute on the water, the entire process seems to change for me. It feels as if I am doing a very different kind of exercise.<br /><br />I have some erg scores that would have gotten me a 2nd and 5th at last year's Mile HIgh Sprints in the longer rows, but I wouldn't even be able to show my face in the 2K.

[[old] DavidW]

<!--QuoteBegin-Galt+Sep 3 2005, 10:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Galt @ Sep 3 2005, 10:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think that I own a fast twitch muscle fiber, and I love erging and rowing.<br /><br />I certainly am no exercise expert, but I will say this.  When we get up to around 28 to 30 storkes per minute on the water, the entire process seems to change for me.  It feels as if I am doing a very different kind of exercise.<br /><br />I have some erg scores that would have gotten me a 2nd and 5th at last year's Mile HIgh Sprints in the longer rows, but I wouldn't even be able to show my face in the 2K. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's interesting, but surely fast twitchers are only used during anaerobic sprint efforts, which the 2k is not. Olympic rowers are mostly slow twitch muscle too.<br /><br />I think I have too many fast twitch fibres to ever be a really good rower, but they are usefull for other things.

[[old] remador]

tditmar,<br /><br />I guess the answer to your question about O-lifters and sprinters may be in the text in the link below:<br /><br /><a href='http://home.hia.no/~stephens/fibtype.htm' target='_blank'>http://home.hia.no/~stephens/fibtype.htm</a><br /><br />I would say erging might enhance your O-lift strength, but only with some sort of high-speed training, like PaulS said, because it would be a somewhat specific strength-training. Nevertheless, O-lifting would be better to enhance O-lifting, I guess... . Anyway, there is much more to this FT/ST type of fibers crap than "common sense" tends to say.<br /><br /><br />AM

[[old] tditmar]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Sep 7 2005, 10:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Sep 7 2005, 10:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->tditmar,<br /><br />I guess the answer to your question about O-lifters and sprinters may be in the text in the link below:<br /><br /><a href='http://home.hia.no/~stephens/fibtype.htm' target='_blank'>http://home.hia.no/~stephens/fibtype.htm</a><br /><br />I would say erging might enhance your O-lift strength, but only with some sort of high-speed training, like PaulS said, because it would be a somewhat specific strength-training. Nevertheless, O-lifting would be better to enhance O-lifting, I guess...  . Anyway, there is much more to this FT/ST type of fibers crap than "common sense" tends to say.<br /><br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /> <br />Thank you for the link, I have read that in the past along with a lot of his other articles. Interesting stuff.<br /><br />I think what I am wondering about is having it all. I mean, being fast, strong, explosive, powerful, agile, and all with good endurance if needed. Maybe a decathlete would be a better example, except it is still all track and field. But to be all those things, wouldn't one need to do much more than the erg, or could that all be achieved with the erg as your sole source of exercise like it is for many on this forum. No doubt Olympic rowers are amazing athletes, but are they all those things. I know one of the famous British guys, I can't remember but think it was Redgrave, enjoys but struggles with distance running. All this even though he is an incredibly fit athlete. Does that then mean it makes sense to train in a variety of ways if you just want to be all round fit? If so, how should one put that together?<br /><br />I try to lift, and use O'lifting and dumbbells for functional rather than body-building type of strength training, run, and erg. My body feels distinctly different after each type of workout, and I sometimes wonder how I should be putting it all together to be most effective for me as well as try to understand why each makes me feel fast or slow or strong, but hopefully never weak.

[[old] remador]

tditmar,<br /><br />I have the same kind of concept you have about sportsmen: we should not over-specialize ourselves. But, that is why I love rowing: physiolocally speaking, I can't imagine a more complete sport (decathletes might be more skilfull in many specific things, but they don't have the strength, muscular endurance or vo2 of elite oarsmen). The case you mentioned (Redgrave) is not a function of the sport practiced but of the creature's body mass... a guy who is 105kg NEVER will run as fast as a 65 kg lad! <br /><br />Having said this, I am a cross-training fan: I think it will make you a more "complete" athlete, it's good for motivation and it helps to break training plateaus. Usually, I do weights, running, cycling and, when possible, swimming (sea). <br /><br />AM

[[old] ancho]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Sep 8 2005, 03:54 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Sep 8 2005, 03:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Having said this, I am a cross-training fan: I think it will make you a more "complete" athlete, it's good for motivation and it helps to break training plateaus. Usually, I do weights, running, cycling and, when possible, swimming (sea). <br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi, remador:<br />I share your philosophy.<br />From your nick I suppose you speak Spanish.<br />Vas a estar por Barcelona alguna vez? En ese caso, aunque seas un Joven ligero" (young lightweight), me encantaría dar unas paladas contigo (1x, 2-, 2x, as you prefer)... Si no, llévate unas zapatillas y salimos a correr!<br /><br />Have fun!!

[[old] remador]

Ancho,<br />Thanks for your response! I regret to say, nevertheless, that I am not spanish, I am portuguese. This doesn't mean I won't go to Barcelona, one of these days ... Anyway, if you come near Lisboa, consider yourself invited for some rowing.<br /><br />Um abraço,<br /><br />AM