How To Run W/o Losing Muscle

[[old] gw1]

Your right Yoda, I don't know how i found my self defending running in any protocol, you would be hard pressed to find any one that dislikes running more than me! <br />I guess i was just thinking if you're going to do it, do it hard, do it fast and get it over with!<br /><br />Now let's get back to talking about lifting heavy weights! <br /><br />Where's Diesel, this thread should be a no brainer for him! <br /><br />Now where are those heavy weights?????????<br /><br />GW

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 08:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 08:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now i'm going to lift some weights and get used to my new slides that just arrived!!<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Keep us posted on how you like your new slides. I am thinking of purchasing a pair myself!<br /><br />Now, I am going to bike on my trainer for 45 minutes, followed with an hour run on my treadmill at nice aerobic pace (I did an hour swim this morning)! <br /><br />Over and out.

[[old] Yoda1]

GW and FrancoisA,<br /><br />Of course, I'm right. That's why they call me Yoda. YaHa! I'm not going to lift any weights today. And since I can't swim, that's out of the question. I just finished digging a 30' ditch to install some drainage pipe. That's tomorrow.<br /><br />I did manage to row for 2014 meters then fell off the seat. Damn, another face plant. <br /><br />I did change my workout though. I dropped the reps to 8 seconds instead of 20 seconds and am doing multiple sets for each exercise. Only one workout so far. <br /><br />Yoda

[[old] kwadams]

Great discussion guys! <br /><br />GW, please let us know how you like your slides. I've been seriously thinking about adding some to my gym floor, too.<br /><br />Yoda, after 3 weeks of SS, I've decided to switch up my workouts again and have gone back to 3 sets of 8-10 reps, fairly heavy weights (machines mostly). The difference from how I used to do it is I'm concentrating on staying slow(er) and not letting momentum take over. It's probably about 8-10 seconds per rep, but longer on the negative side. I'm going to try 3 workouts per week of split routines--chest, shoulders, and tri's on Monday, legs on Tuesday, and then back and biceps on Thursday. My first workout Monday was a good one and I was pretty sore the day after. I really think the SS protocol helped me--I'm actually stronger and am able to get a better burn than before. I take the last set to failure for a given exercise. I'll probably switch back and forth between this and SS every 3-4 weeks to see what happens. The other big thing I've noticed is that by staying slow, my shoulder doesn't hurt, so I guess that's good. Any comments? What do you think about the split routine?<br /><br />Thanks--keep up the great conversations here.<br /><br />Kevin

[[old] Yoda1]

Kevin,<br /><br />Here's what I found when I adjusted my workout to the multiple sets and faster reps. Plain and simple I ended up with a pump. Where as with SS, there wasn't a pump. The BIG question is if a person takes SS to exhaustion with one set, why would there be a need to do more than that? The feeling I got from the mulitple sets was great, but yet I felt like I was doing a couple of warmup sets to get to the actual work set. I hope you understand what I mean here.<br /><br />Split workouts are okay. I don't care for them myself because if a person is taking each exercise to exhaustion, then that person's recovery is going to be in question. I suppose it depends on what your goals are. Bodybuilders need the pump. It's like a drug to them. It tells them that they have done a good job for that particular workout. But then their goal is the development of their bodies. For someone that's interested in another sport. let's say rowing, then the time required for a split routine takes away from rowing. And the progress in rowing is slowed because the body hasn't recovered from the split routine or the "pump".<br /><br />As I have said before, I believe in SS. It may not be the answer to everyone's goals, but there is a lot to be said about one heavy duty, basic workout per week that works the whole body. Actual, it doesn't just apply to SS, it can also apply to traditional workouts as well IF the person doing the workout is taking each exercise to exhaustion.<br /><br />Just my opinion here, no yelling.<br /><br />Yoda (the bionic one)

[[old] vachh5]

I think I'll have another drink...

[[old] Almostflipped]

Yoda: Curious here about the SS concept. It sounds a lot like max strength training to me. With max strength though, gains usually slow down after about 6-8 weeks due to bio-chemical changes and it is advised that you should cycle in and out of it. Have you noticed the same thing with SS or have the gains been more consistent and steady? Have you tried cycling between SS and normal multiple sets? Just looking to see if there is a way to blend the two systems together for an even better result.

[[old] kwadams]

Yoda--<br /><br />You are exactly right--it was the "pump" I was missing. I did a hard bicep workout today, multiple sets including some dumbell work, and I really missed that feeling when I was doing SS. I don't know about you, but arms are the place where I can get the best pump, I guess because of the full flex or contraction you can get of the muscle. After doing SS for 3 weeks, I'm not any worse off, probably even stronger. I'm not abandoning it at all, as I will cycle back and forth about every 4 weeks or so. I was still able to do a 5000m row this morning before the weights (as a warm-up), so even if I go back to a split routine of 3 weight workouts a week (two upper body and one legs), I should still be able to keep up my other training in both rowing and cycling. I still believe that SS is a very effective workout, especially for folks that want to keep up the strength training, but focus more on specific sport training.<br /><br />Thanks.<br />Kevin

[[old] Yoda1]

almostflipped and Kevin,<br /><br />Over a lot of years of SS with many, many clients following the SS protocol gains were fairly consistant. There didn't seem to be a need for cycling, mainly because the folks I work with are older and not concerned to much with how they look. They are more concerned about being able to do the everyday things like bend over and pick something off the floor. There have been a few that wanted more athletic strength and all we did with them is track their progress and made exercise changes along with the timing of SS. In other words, instead of 20 seconds per rep, maybe we would drop it to 12 seconds per rep. But the gains were not at rapid as with traditional strength training. They were consistant and without injury.<br /><br />I don't see why traditional training and SS can't be used on an alternating basis. Both are methods of gaining strength. One is, injury wise, safer than the other. SS being the other. <br /><br />I don't see SS being a max strength protocol. Mainly for two reasons. One the amount of weight being used is considerably less that traditional training. And two, it is as much mental as it is physical. This is why SS doesn't have the following that traditional training has. It requires focus and consentration. And most people look for the easier way. Resistance training is difficult enough with traditional training. Now you tell someone that they are going to have to endure the pain associated with SS for an extended period of time and "boom" they go back to traditional training. I spent a lot of years working out in order to compete at a high level of powerlifting and olympic lifting. Hour upon hour of set after set of basic power type exercises. I remember all to well the aching and the soreness that set in after a really tough workout. But I can not remember an equal amout of pain and burning that is generated by one 40 minute SS session. SS will not give a person a single max lift best. But it will give that person consistant gains if done correctly. SS will not give a person the body of a top bodybuilder, but it will give them a good looking well conditioned body.<br /><br />Hey, both systems work. There is no question about it. I think the person getting ready to start or renew an exercise program needs to ask themselves a couple of questions. One being, do I want to gain strength, gain weight safely? Two, Is this style or type of training going to give me the time I need for the sport I'm participating in? Three, Is this program going to give me on going results? <br /><br />Boy, am I windy today or what? How about some feedback?<br /><br />No Yelling!<br /><br />Yoda<br /><br />

[[old] cityeast]

I wish I would lose some muscle mass on my legs. My quads/hammies look like they belong on an All Blacks Rugby forward, but I've never played the game in my life. I find trousers 2-3 inches too loose at the waist, but my legs barely fit in.<br /><br />I think it may have a lot to do with my cycling style. In summer tackle long steep hills (one regularly up to 18% grade) at a very low cadence (around 40-50rpm). I must try to "spin" more.<br /><br />I don't think rowing is really helping!

[[old] Yoda1]

cityeast,<br /><br />Are you riding a wedgie or a recumbent? I ride as well, probably not as much as I should, but it's a NEW Catrike Pocket Trike that is on it's way to me. Should have it in about another week.<br /><br />I agree with you about the spinning. If you're cranking at a cadence of 40 to 50 turns per minute, you are indeed working the quads pretty hard. I doubt that the rowing has had the effect you are eluding to though. Probably genetics is the real cause of large legs.<br /><br />Yoda

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 12:22 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 12:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you would be hard pressed to find any one that dislikes running more than me! <br />I guess i was just thinking if you're going to do it, do it hard, do it fast and get it over with! </td></tr></table><br />That's probably why you don't like it. <br /><br />I think a good running program would be much the same as a good rowing program, and visa versa.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Feb 7 2005, 07:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Feb 7 2005, 07:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of my swimming background, I was able to pull a 5k in 18:07 after only one month of erging. On the other hand, there is no way I could pull a 500m in 1:29 as you do! (I am 5' 10", 150 lbs). </td></tr></table><br />Francois,<br /><br />Nice 5k. <br /><br />Would you mind sharing what kind of workouts you do, and are they the same as your swimming workouts?<br /><br />Thanks.<br />

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Feb 11 2005, 01:55 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 11 2005, 01:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Feb 7 2005, 07:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Feb 7 2005, 07:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of my swimming background, I was able to pull a 5k in 18:07 after only one month of erging. On the other hand, there is no way I could pull a 500m in 1:29 as you do! (I am 5' 10", 150 lbs). </td></tr></table><br />Francois,<br /><br />Nice 5k. <br /><br />Would you mind sharing what kind of workouts you do, and are they the same as your swimming workouts?<br /><br />Thanks. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />John,<br /><br />I did 18:07 in March 04. At that time I was doing 6 swim workouts a week (11 hours). I was also running and biking on a trainer 3 times a week for the coming triathlon season. So I only had time for three erging session a week.<br />At that time, my erging workouts would mimic the swim workouts: intervals with little rest between them.<br />A typical erging session would be:<br /> 1500m warm-up<br /> 2 x 1500m (1st easy, 2nd mod-hard, 30 sec rest) <br /> 3 x 1000m (descending 1 to 3, 30 sec rest)<br /> 6 x 500m (descending 1 to 3 and 4 to 6, 30 sec rest)<br /> 1000m cool down<br /><br />It was mainly AT intensity and above. There was no UT1 or UT2 and that was a mistake. After two months of training, I did 15712m for the 60 min time trial. But I was starting to plateau. I stopped erging at the end of May, concentrating on biking and running and only swimming 3 hours a week. That was also a mistake! When I resumed erging at the end of September, my upper body was quite weak; I had a lot of endurance but no speed and no lactate tolerance. Since September, I am back to 9 to 12 hours of swimming and 3 workouts of erging, biking and running a week. I have not done intervals but mainly UT2 work at low spm and some UT1. These days, I am always erging strapless. <br />I think that even with a good aerobic base from other sports, one needs to build an endurance base that is specific to erging. It is already paying dividend since for any given HR, I am faster today than I was a year ago. Things will only get better when I begin to do intervals. This year I will not stop erging during the Summer, it is just too discouraging to start all over! <br /><br />That was a long story, I hope it helped!<br /><br />Cheers

[[old] John Rupp]

Francois,<br /><br />Yes, that helps. Thanks for sharing.