Hungry - Protien Shake Thoughts?

[[old] michael]

Actually, John meant what he said when he stated that excessive animal protein is cutting short the life spans of many people. Much of the misinformation about protein has been desseminated by the self-crowned purveyors of human nutrition for the last 75 years, namely the meat and dairy industries. Their beliefs that only animal protein and large amounts of it are needed to achieve optimal health were largely based on, by now long discredited experiments conducted on rats back in 1914.<br><br>In the last 15 years many research articles in prominent medical journals have correlated high animal protein consumption with an entire range of health problems, including gout, arthritis, colo-rectal cancer, kidney disease and osteopenia/osteoporosis.<br><br>FYI, here's an interesting quote by Bill Pearl: "I have now been vegetarian for almost 20 years. We have no fish, fowl, or red meat in our diet. Yet I can still carry the same amount of muscle as I did in winning my four Mr. Universe titles. People can't believe it. They think that to have big muscles you have to eat meat - it's a persistent and recurring myth. But take it from me, there's nothing magic about eating meat that's going to make you a champion bodybuilder. Anything you can find in a piece of meat, you can find in other foods as well."

[[old] DIESEL]

my only problem with that range of thinking are as follows:<br><br>I don't even have a beef with the animal protein part - it's the excessive protein part, period. (Sorry, I just like a big ol' steak once in awhile.) <br><br>anyway what exactly is "excessive animal protein consumption?" is it some standardized number, what are the variables that it depends on? what kind of subjects did they use in those experiments? sedentary schlubs.. weekend warriors?.. elite athletes?? what sports did they participate in? endurance? power-strength? contact?<br><br>Did they give specific numbers on what is "excessive"? 100g / day ? 200g/day ? 800g/day? I eat about 1lb. / # of bodyweight and put in about 10 sessions a week of high intensity exercise. With the amount of punishment my body takes, I highly doubt I am eating an excessive amount of protein. <br><br>following your rationale - given your quote of Bill Pearl... would it not also be possible to have an "excessive amount of protein" on a vegan diet as well.... ? I highly doubt Bill Pearl is only eating 50-100g of protein a day.

[[old] John Rupp]

"Traditional Chinese consume plant centered diets in sharp contrast to those of Americans. The following table is standardized for 143-pound adult males:<br><br>Daily Calcium Intake...China: 544mg ... USA: 1143mg <br>Calcium from Dairy.....China: 0% ... USA: 75% <br>Daily Protein Intake...China: 64g ... USA: 91g <br>Protein from Animals...China: 7% ... USA: 70% <br>Calories from Animals..China: 6% ... USA: 44% <br>Osteoporosis Rates.....China: 0.5% ... USA: 10% <br><br>"In rural regions of China, osteoporosis is rare despite HALF the calcium intake of Americans. Clearly, animal protein intake is a significant factor with regard to osteoporosis."<br><br><a href='http://www.netmender.net/health/article ... seases.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.netmender.net/health/article ... ses.htm</a>

[[old] DavidA]

John,<br> While those are interesting numbers it is incorrect to say 'Clearly, animal protein intake is a significant factor with regard to osteoporosis'. There is no cause and affect relationship shown. The percentage of Chinese with straight, black hair is probably higher also, but that doesn't mean that having such hair is a factor in regard to osteoporosis.

[[old] Bayko]

Certainly the average American diet can be better than it is, I won't argue otherwise. However, statistics do not tell the whole story.<br><br>People are going to die of SOMETHING. History has shown us that it is inevitible. Nobody born before 1887 has escaped it, and there are no encouraging signs that anyone alive today will do so either. One reason for the rise in diseases such as osteoporosis, heart disease, stroke, alzheimers, etc. is that people are LIVING LONGER. If somebody who died 50 or 100years ago of polio or smallpox or anthrax or a bad case of the flu had the same vaccines that we have today, they would have survived the death they suffered and may have lived long enough to die of a disease of old age instead.<br><br>Rural Chinese have less osteoporosis than Americans? Do they live long enough to get osteoporosis?<br><br>Palestinian and Iraqi suicide bombers have virtually NO diseases of old age. Does that mean that we should adopt their diet?<br><br>Statistics can be interesting, but can also be twisted into faulty conclusions.<br><br>Rick

[[old] John Rupp]

David,<br><br>Your statements, "it is incorrect to say 'Clearly, animal protein intake is a significant factor with regard to osteoporosis'" and "There is no cause and affect relationship shown." are both false.<br><br>Animal protein drives calcium from the body.<br><br>Perhaps black hair helps to conserve calcium, so perhaps you're on to something with that.<br><br>Or it could be that Chinese have black hair and less baldness, because of a relationship with higher calcium in their bodies due to not eating so much animal protein.<br><br>There are lots of possibilities, but the relationship between animal protein intake and osteoporosis is conclusive.

[[old] michael]

Highly conclusive in fact. Study after study has borne out that the higher levels of sulphur-containing amino acids in animal protein-containing foods are metabolized to sulfuric acid. This leads to hemotological acidosis which in turn promotes osteoclastic activity. Basically, to maintain the required pH neutrality in the human bloodstream, it becomes necessary for calcium ions to be leached from bone.

[[old] drkcgoh]

I am Chinese, with straight black hair & a family stricken with osteoporosis from my father (who was crippled for the last 8 of his 88 years by spinal osteoporosis) to all my siblings & even my son who broke his wrist stopping a soccer ball at goal. But my bone density has climbed from +0.8 to 2.3 thru serial DEXA studies without taking any milk or supplemental calcium, & a normal diet, with the ocasional 14oz steak. I have tumbled down a hill & fallen during a few road races without sustaining anything more than a few bruises & bleeding that was quite a sight at the end of the race. I constantly treat younger patients who fracture their bones with the slightest fall, and these are the ones who proclaim themselves experts at the latest low carb or vegetarian diets. <br> Regarding eating & weight control- I regularly weigh myself on an accurate digital scale before & after food, & it can range from 146.5 before food to 151lb after a good meal. At one time it was a purely vegetarian diet when I worked at the Adventist Hospital. Weight training & erging is the only factor that has improved the bone strength. <br> My experience with Random Controlled Trials (RCTs) is that they are not truly random, and these results should be taken with a pinch of salt. When I enroled at Yale in a program to demonstrate that high protein intake causes Osteoporosis, especially in a Chinese male population, I was rejected because the investigatiors felt that my good bone density would skew their results. So how can I ever believe any studies they publish? Protocols are thoroughly vetted by ethical committes (I have served in one) before they can be carried out, but no one can assure us that the recruitment of subjects has been totally random, or that the protocol has been rigorously carried out. <br> As we age, we need yearly physicals to nip in the bud any sinister conditions that have been detected, and that includes developing osteopososis, prostate conditions, recto-colonic conditions, as well as the lifestyle diseases of obesity, diabetes, cholesterol conditions, etc. the list goes on. It helps to go on a healthy diet, and we need not go into the controversies about an animal or vegetarian, a high or low protein/carb diet. Moderation is best, and established medical advice should be followed, not the latest theory that has hit the news media. <br>KC63<br> <br> <br> <br>

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-drkcgoh+Dec 17 2004, 01:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (drkcgoh @ Dec 17 2004, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I constantly treat younger patients who fracture their bones with the slightest fall, and these are the ones who proclaim themselves experts at the latest low carb or vegetarian diets.<br><br><!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>Osteoporsis is epidemic in the U.S., however the U.S. is not a vegetarian high carb population.<br><br>I've been on a HIGH CARB vegetarian diet since 1974, have tripped and fallen, even quite hard a few times and have never had a fractured bone at a slight fall.<br><br>To the contrary, a person on a low carb high fat and high animal protein diet is very likely to have brittle bones. It is common in the U.S. for the people to have fractured hips even from just standing up and very little exercise. <br><br>However, osteoporosis is rare in countries with high carb vegetarian diets.<br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I enroled at Yale in a program to demonstrate that high protein intake causes Osteoporosis, especially in a Chinese male population, I was rejected because the investigatiors felt that my good bone density would skew their results. <br><br><!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>Another reason the relationship is not studied in U.S. Universities is due to the influence of the meat and dairy industries.

[[old] TomR/the elder]

My wife's a vegematic. I like flesh. Our kid was vegetarian until at age 13 he went to the ball park with a friend whose dad bought him some hot dogs. He's never looked back and now claims the reason he was so small as a child was his vegetarian diet. <br><br>Perhaps you need protein shakes if you want to be a body builder, but are they otherwise necessary? My objection to these and other supplements is their obscene cost. <br><br>Tom

[[old] drkcgoh]

Here are some facts to clear the myth that the Chinese are vegetarians on a high carb diet. We eat rice as our staple diet, + large amounts of pork, chicken & fish. But I don't think we can challenge the Sumo wrestlers who consume about 18,500 Calories a day. A vegetarian diet is adhered to only for about a fortnight during a certain religious festival. <br>Osteoporosis is now recognized as a major affliction here, & the incidence among elderly men is getting even higher. What obscures the larger picture is the lack of reporting & scientific studies to document and write up this global trend of osteoporosis. Funding is easier in the West; thus the plethora of studies on osteoporosis.<br>The internet has brought the fashionable ideas of the West over too rapidly, & the new emerging trendsetters are only too eager to ape the West and quietly suffer the diseases that afflict humans globally. The low carb diet, the Atkins, the South Beach, Barry Sears, The Zone diet, creatinine, spirulina, etc. All these & more are as popular here as in the West. <br>It is only when we attend international conferences that we come into contact with the leading authorities in all their humility, and the brash youngsters who claim to know everything. I am hesitant to state anything emphatically now, only to be found wrong in a few years. <br> KC63

[[old] Kudos]

hahaha, I read Barry Sears real quick and thought it said Britney Spears. Awesomeness.<br><br>She is a western disease too<br><br><br>PS: what is bad about spirulna, isn't it just seaweed?

[[old] John Rupp]

Spirulina sounds good to me.<br><br>It certainly has nothing to do with the diet programs that were mentioned.

[[old] TomR/the elder]

There may be nothing bad about spirulina, but is there anything particulary good about it? It's package up and sold for at exhorbitant prices, like many supplements. <br><br>Tom

[[old] John Rupp]

I got some in bulk at a coop near here a few years ago.<br><br>It was pretty good and lasted a long time.<br><br>I'm not checked it's composition recently but figure I get what is needed from all the wild things that grow in my garden.