Big guy rowing - video feedback requested

[hjs]

I offer my comments/suggestions to the OP. With a fifty year athletic background, I have some idea about how to train. If the OP sees merit in the suggestions, so be it. If not, that is fine too.

"A standard test done by otw rower is 30/20 30 min at rate 20." I have no concept of those parameters. It's nothing that I do. My comments apply to indoor rowing. I have not a clue about OTW rowing, nor is it necessary for indoor rowing. Two different animals.

The 30/20 is an indoorrowing test. So one kind of animal. I gave you context to your rate 16 pace 1.40 example, hst was nonsense, nobody does that.


The best indoorrowers are Otw rowers, not cylists

If I remember correctly you have trouble with higher speed, relative speaking, that is a direct result of your high spm always training. You lack strenght. That is fine, but be honoust about you training, which you are not. Suggestions are fine but tell the whole story and don,t sherry pick.

[Cyclingman1]

Hard to know how to reply to this post.

I am about half crippled with some serious back and hip issues, which are aggravated most by hard rowing. However, having said that my 2013 rankings among all 65+ rowers, worldwide, from 1K through HM, are 6 #1s and 2 #2s. I'll leave to other readers to see if I'm somehow being dishonest about training. Sorry, I even brought this up, but Jeez.

Secondly, I've made no comment about which sports adapt best to indoor rowing. It would be only common sense to think that outdoor rowing would translate best. Others have said that I have an advantage due to cycling in other topics. The only person who brought up cycling in this topic is hjs.

[tarverator]

Thanks for the debate; most informative. I am experimenting with lower drag factors and higher stroke rates... I will report after another session or two. Glad I asked!

[hjs]

Hard to know how to reply to this post.

I am about half crippled with some serious back and hip issues, which are aggravated most by hard rowing. However, having said that my 2013 rankings among all 65+ rowers, worldwide, from 1K through HM, are 6 #1s and 2 #2s. I'll leave to other readers to see if I'm somehow being dishonest about training. Sorry, I even brought this up, but Jeez.

Secondly, I've made no comment about which sports adapt best to indoor rowing. It would be only common sense to think that outdoor rowing would translate best. Others have said that I have an advantage due to cycling in other topics. The only person who brought up cycling in this topic is hjs.

I brought up cycling in a good way, you having done a lot has build your endurence. The fact you don,t mention that is what is dishonoust, it is a major factor in your results. Which are very nice.
For some raeason every I say you take wrong. What I say is having a background is sports is an advantage. For you that is cycling and although you don,t mention what you did, cycling is mostly long continues work.

Rowing is a power enduranc sport, your way of training does not train your power, which shows in your 500 I guess. Although your injurees will also be factor.
In itself I have nothing against your high spm, it works for you. Your results are fine and given your injurees lower rating would proberly not be a good thing.

But the original question was about rowing style, not rate, so to bring this discussion to rate is not very helpfull. In this case I think the poster is not helped much by going like a hamster up and down pulling air. He is a big man and currently his stroke is on the soft side. Working on that helps him the most I think.

[Citroen]

I brought up cycling in a good way, you having done a lot has build your endurence. The fact you don,t mention that is what is dishonoust, it is a major factor in your results. Which are very nice.
For some raeason every I say you take wrong. What I say is having a background is sports is an advantage. For you that is cycling and although you don,t mention what you did, cycling is mostly long continues work.

Henry, could that be because Cyclingman1 doesn't realise that you're Dutch and that English isn't your first language?

[hjs]

I brought up cycling in a good way, you having done a lot has build your endurence. The fact you don,t mention that is what is dishonoust, it is a major factor in your results. Which are very nice.
For some raeason every I say you take wrong. What I say is having a background is sports is an advantage. For you that is cycling and although you don,t mention what you did, cycling is mostly long continues work.

Henry, could that be because Cyclingman1 doesn't realise that you're Dutch and that English isn't your first language?

That could be Doug, maybe some words are a bit harsh in his view, but all in all I think I am pretty clear, I have no real critic, I only say, why don,t you mention your complete training. Next to his erg work, he did and does a lot of cycling. And that is an important factor. So mention that.

His results are fine, if not better, I have never stated otherwise.....

[Cyclingman1]

I don't see commenters in these forums posting mini-autobiographies before every post. And to use words like "dishonest" directed towards to those who do not post such - selectively done of course - is way over the top regardless of native country. What in the world could anyone hope to accomplish by issuing such?

My runnning and cycling background may have relevant 20-30 yrs ago, but not so much now. My fitness from those days has long since disappeared. The OP has absolutely no interest that I may have been a decent cyclist 20 yrs ago. My responses to him were strictly based on my experiences on a rower; what I observed in his video; his stated personal characteristic; and his stated performance data. My main observation is that the OP - at least in the video - is not working hard enough to improve. His statement that he needs to rest after a pull, tells me that he needs to improve fitness first. In other words cut down on the drag factor, diminish pull level, and speed up some. Has nothing to do with cycling. I did not give him my workout program; my comments were general in nature. I simply offer them free of charge. If the OP finds them useful, I will be pleased. If not, then they were the wrong idea for him. Not a big deal to me.

What is a big deal is the tossing around of inflammatory words by others. Personally I think it all stems from my not buying that one has to row at sub-20 SPM to achieve good results on a rower. I can tell you that if my body did not have inherent structural weaknesses/degeneration, that predate my ever getting on a rower, that my way of rowing would be resulting in some great times. Now they are just okay. Not complaining; it's just the way the cookie crumbles. As they say in America.

[jamesg]

His statement that he needs to rest after a pull, tells me that he needs to improve fitness first. In other words cut down on the drag factor, diminish pull level, and speed up some

How about learning to row? How can he work hard without knowing how to do it?

Basing your rowing theory on the mechanics of cycling can only lead to problems: on the erg we have three degrees of freedom (length, force and rating) whereas in cycling there are only two dof, force and frequency. Also road races are long, even 300km, while the standard afloat is 2k with head races up to ½h.

All this boils down to the need to develop a very good stroke. It's the quality of the stroke that gives speed. Using that speed gets us fit, and getting fit lets us maintain speed.

[Cyclingman1]

James,

I so indicated first up that his rowing stroke, while perhaps not the best, is certainly well within acceptable. He will get better/more comfortable over time with rowing. I in no way disagree that stroke is all important in rowing.

I absolutely, positively - how many times can I say this - am not not saying anything to the OP based on cycling. I only said that I think he needs more speed on the rower and should concentrate on aerobic fitness based on what I see. I do not suggest that strength is not part of the equation. They can both be worked on simultaneously. I don't think he is doing that.

To all commenters: Why not start from fresh and directly address the OP and leave me out of the comments? Putting me in clouds your arguments.
I did not nitpick others when I spoke to the OP about what I thought he should do.

I don't agree with the low SPM theories that I see constantly bandied about, but I don't start blasting everyone as a result. I actually think that a neutral observer that actually knew my complete history, including rowing history, might see some merit in my training, intermittent as it has to be. I'm not asking anyone to like how I row. But I have been reasonably successful doing it.

[jamesg]

I don't agree with the low SPM theories

This is perhaps the key point. In rowing we use all sorts of ratings (spm): 16-18 for paddle light to warm down, 22-24 for long distance work, 30-34 fast cruise in races, >38 for intervals, off the start and at the finish, up to 60 for backstop drills and warm-up. Similar on the erg, with the limitations due to inertia. Apart from paddle light and drills, all these are done at nearly full force and full length, controlling only the rating to control the CV load. We have three d.o.f, but effectively use one only, the rating, so the mechanical Work in each stroke does not vary much (say 20%) but the rating and hence the Power can double.

The aim of this protocol is to train the stroke itself. Rowing is the opposite of climbing Everest; there you'll need all sorts of techniques and methods and equipment and had better get them lined up before you start. On the erg or water, one is enough, the stroke; so what do we line up beforehand, if not that? Then once we have a full length stroke that will shift a boat fast, we use it. If you get a chance to listen to a 1x hull sing on flat water with no wind, you'll know why; some say it's the (second) best feeling.. We try to make this happen at low ratings over long distances, not thanks to some arcane rule or theory, but because it's impossible to do it at high rating.

To rate high but go slow (spin??) is fine on the bike, I shorten the gears and do it all the time. Afloat it can't happen, there are no gears; it would be fun to watch someone try though, especially a crew of novices.



PS. The videos posted here for criticism usually show disastrous style; the OP is no exception. Please don't suggest a style is acceptable when it's not, or suggest that by more training things will get better. They won't, worse is more likely, if not injury. If you've ever been to a regatta you'll have seen that crews with better style go faster. This is because good style is harder work than bad, so not only makes us go faster, but also trains us better. Need I quote Xeno? He says those without good technique begin to fall back after the first 500...

Rowing is not difficult, technically; relax, pull long hard and move in sequence and you're well on your way. But there's no percentage in thinking it's easier than it actually is.

[Cyclingman1]

So OTW is the one standard, the sole basis, of indoor rowing? Sure OTW rowers started Concept2. But I venture to say that most indoor rowers have never rowed a boat. Virtually everything you mention is geared to OTW rowing. Some of it applies to greater or lesser degree to indoor rowing. Why not let indoor rowing stand on its own, instead of dragging up training necessary for OTW rowing. And why, why, why is there this insistence on talking about cycling. That is just an irrelevancy.

I’m not claiming that the OP is even a good rower. But his form is not going to harm him. He’ll get better. Going faster up to some point helps. The stroke has to be more coordinated when going faster. Now there is a lot of dead time that makes it all awkward. Try hitting a golf ball in segments. It doesn’t work.

It seems like if one does not drink the OTW and the low SPM Kool-Aid, one just cannot speak of rowing in this discussion group. Isn’t there an OTW discussion group for OTW training where OTW rules and concepts can be strictly enforced?

[hjs]

Last one for me, I myself do not much long slow work on the erg, I do not use very low ratings.

Re cycling, rowing at relative slow pace and high spm is a cycling style, that means rowing in 1:1 stroke versus recovery, the stroke most people use in gyms.

Re background in sports, people who once trained seriously will always profit from this, even if you have had a long break.

Re Otw this rowers pull the best times on the erg, so there way of training is simply the best, facts are facts.

[tarverator]

Wow, quite the discussion...

If you look at my video carefully, you will see that I am rowing OTW. The water is in the red water bottle directly under the erg.

Yesterday I tried turning the DF down to 125, and rowing 5000m alternating 500m segments at 25 and 30 SPM while keeping an eye on the force curve in the PM. This was most instructive.

Today, I am going to try being even more systematic about expanding into this territory by rowing for an hour moving systematically up and down the stroke rate scale as per the following "ladder" which I have printed nicely and put in a clipboard:

Stroke Rate Ladder:

Meters Stroke
0 20
100 21
200 22
300 23
400 24
500 25
600 26
700 27
800 28
900 29
1000 30
1100 29
1200 28
1300 27
1400 26
1500 25
1600 24
1700 23
1800 22
1900 21
2000 20

[Cyclingman1]

The thing I like is that you are willing to experiment at this early stage in your rowing. It is way too early to get serious, that is, dedicated to one way. You will learn much by changing up SPM, drag factor, etc. I would just caution to maintain a pace [time/500m] where you can do your workouts. It does no good to burn out. You probably will find that the pace is easier or more difficult to maintain as you slide up and down the SPM scale. I think you should change the pace if needed to maintain desired heart rate and/or percieved exertion level. That's what was used in the old days before HRMs.

[jamesg]

This is what rowing looks like.
http://www.britishrowing.org/taking-par ... ing-stroke
The dynamics of flywheels and boats are sufficiently similar to be able to apply the recovery sequence, length, posture, ratio and speed seen here, which is one of the reasons why the C2 uses a flywheel.