So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Bob S.
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by Bob S. » January 7th, 2013, 9:36 pm

Cyclingman1 wrote:At 16 SPM the pull for one fourth of the cycle must be quite substantial to keep the pace up compared to the force of the pull at say 32 SPM. The greater effort must elevate the heart rate.
The flip side of that is that if you row at 16 SPM and then try to hold the same pace at 32 SPM it feels off, since the pull is too light. In rowing classes, beginners are typically started out at low rates to concentrate on their technique, get used to using the muscles required for rowing, and to build up their endurance by doing longer and longer pieces. They are not expected to maintain a fast pace, but just to concentrate on fundamentals. As they improve, they learn to go at a faster pace, not by pulling harder, but by gradually increasing their stroke rate. The drive part of the stroke itself does not change much - the length should be the same and the time of the drive will not vary much. The drive time is quite short, 0.5-0.9 seconds and most of that variation is from one person to another. It normally would not vary by much for one person. It has been my impression that in cycling it is common to try to keep the cadence constant. In rowing, the stroke rate is varied a lot, but the work per stroke has a narrow range. The bimodal nature of the rowing stroke rules out any idea of constant pressure. Instead, the recovery has to be a time of just that - recovery - and it should be relaxed.

Cyclingman1 wrote:As I’ve said before, I just have not found rowing at low SPM on an indoor rower the way to maximize times. I realize some use low SPM as a training tool only. Perhaps some of that may help. It’s like doing hill repeats in running. Everyone will end of rowing how they feel comfortable and for me that is not anything below 30 SPM.
I doubt that many rowers use low SPM to maximize time - at least not directly. It is used a lot in training sessions, especially for work on technique, and it is used for long distance pieces - not time trials, but long distances done for building endurance. Indirectly the work on technique and endurance should help improve performance times, but only in the long term. Other than correcting major technique flaws, it would not help in the short term.

Cyclingman1
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by Cyclingman1 » January 8th, 2013, 6:24 am

Perhaps some clarification.
First, as far as jumping from other aerobic activities to rowing. I was very competitive in those areas 20 yrs ago, finishing in the top 3 in duathlons across the SE US. I haven't been able to run for the last ten years. And I haven't done a time trail in at least 15 yrs. I would have liked to try rowing when I was 45. I have no doubt that I would have been a 6:00 rower for 2K. I was not constantly injured in those days. Course, anyone can say what might have been, but I'm sticking to my story. Any success I have now in rowing is only somewhat connected to what I did 20 years ago. Most of my quite limited success in rowing has been due to intense workouts, low mileage, and rest.

Where cycling came into play in this discussion was the different feel from constant motion versus one broken into pull and recovery, which is accentuated at low SPM. Regarading the feel going from 16 SPM to 32 SPM, no way can one pull at that same level. There is not time to recover. And in fact, I don't think that the VO2 Max is there to go from 16 to 32. That is where Armstrong bested his competition. His cadence was about 10% higher than his competitors with similar push. Training at 16 SPM develops strength, not aerobic capacity so much. I think it leaves one unequipped to row fast times which requires high VO2 Max.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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hjs
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by hjs » January 8th, 2013, 7:14 am

Most top results on the erg are ste by otw rowers. Does people do lot's of low rate work. rate 18/20, but on top of that they do some race pace and rate work. Percentage wise not that much, but still. So to say that doing lot's of low rate work does set one up for fast times is simply proven wrong.

Rate in itself is not the most important factor, intensity is. And both in high and low rate you can row at high intensity. I do believe some race rate and pace is needed, but even people who only do lowrate work will be able to pull a not far from best race results at higher rates. And also the other way around, if someone always rows at high rates, it will not take him long to also be able to pull decent times at low rates.

Rowing a lot at lower rate is ofcourse harder on the body, that is an aspect that is often not mentioned. In the long run it will be harder.

Rate without pace means not much. No matter how we train, pace is always number one, ones height also makes a big differense. rate 30 is high for a tall man, but not high at all for a small lady.

Someone with a long history in sports has build a good base, his heart and lungs muscle are trained, not specificly for rowing but he is fit to work hard. It does not take much effort to use that present fitness in rowing. If the same person did not have that background it would be totaal different situation. What you build in a lifetime will help you in a lifetime.

Erging is a very age friendly sport, compared to othet sports people can often pull very decent results at higher ages. So extrapolate results back to a younger age is very difficult. A 6.00 age 45 is very good. If someone had the talent to do so, he also could have been very good a other sports. If he was not I think one is overestimating ones potential.

Cyclingman1 wrote:Perhaps some clarification.
First, as far as jumping from other aerobic activities to rowing. I was very competitive in those areas 20 yrs ago, finishing in the top 3 in duathlons across the SE US. I haven't been able to run for the last ten years. And I haven't done a time trail in at least 15 yrs. I would have liked to try rowing when I was 45. I have no doubt that I would have been a 6:00 rower for 2K. I was not constantly injured in those days. Course, anyone can say what might have been, but I'm sticking to my story. Any success I have now in rowing is only somewhat connected to what I did 20 years ago. Most of my success in rowing has been due to intense workouts, low mileage, and rest.

Where cycling came into play in this discussion was the different feel from constant motion versus one broken into pull and recovery, which is accentuated at low SPM. Regarading the feel going from 16 SPM to 32 SPM, no way can one pull at that same level. There is not time to recover. And in fact, I don't think that the VO2 Max is there to go from 16 to 32. That is where Armstrong bested his competition. His cadence was about 10% higher than his competitors with similar push. Training a 16 SPM develops strength. I think it leaves one unequipped to row fast times which requires high VO2 Max.

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Carl Watts
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by Carl Watts » January 8th, 2013, 5:34 pm

HJS made a key point, although I would also say pace without SPM is equally almost meaningless for determining overall performance. It's the reason I have been pushing to get that information on screen for RowPro as currently you have to guess it by looking at the graphics. Of cource you also need heartrate information for an even better overall picture but thats going to be to much information on screen and is not likley to be popular with most people as it is giving away just to much information.

You have to understand that on RowPro the ability of the rowers extends from one end of the spectrum to the other. A 2:02 pace row at 30spm could be a PB for one person but 2:02 at 20spm is just a training row for me and there are others doing 1:53 pace at only one or two spm higher thats just everyday training for them !

It's pretty hard to draw a line back in time to come to a 2K time. I row online with a friend the same age that was an under 23 National rep and his best ever time on the erg was a 6:10 and he is also taller than me.

He is still a bit faster than me overall based on his 30 minute but not by much as he doesn't like to really push himself to the limits these days and my shorter distance 5K and 2K times are faster than his.

Could I have done a 6:10 at age 23 ? I doubt it so there is no way I can do a 6:00 at age 45. Perthaps if I quit work, trained like a manic with some professional help and took some drugs I could get to 6:30 !
Carl Watts.
Age:56 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
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kennyhassman
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by kennyhassman » January 17th, 2013, 12:55 am

David Pomerantz wrote:Just did a Moderately intense piece: 30min 16spm 166 heart rate. That is my lowest rate ever. Also did it at one of my lowest drag factors, 110. So while I'm thinking of it I thought I'd ask specifically about the benefits of rowing at low rates and low drag factors. It felt good, but thought I'd seek more informed specific answers. Thanks.
Dave
I'm in my mid-60s and overweight and out of shape. I bought a Model E about a month ago and have worked up to a 40 minute row every morning. I'm down about 8 pounds (of the 70 I need to lose). I recently read a book I really got a lot out of by Dr. Phil Maffetone "The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing" and he spent a lot of time talking about slower and taking the time to build an aerobic base. Apparently many top athletes, including ultra-marathon'ers have used this method with great training success. I like it so far as I don't feel like I'm killing myself and I've noticed that even after a week using his method of figuring out my lower aerobic range (96-106) I have to work harder to get my heart rate up to the top of my range - 106, my resting heart rate and blood pressure (for which I take medication) is slightly lower to and I'm not as easily winded.

Ken

Cyclingman1
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by Cyclingman1 » January 17th, 2013, 6:13 am

So, is this a complaint? That's what training does: makes what was once difficult, easy. You neglect to state any info on pace/500, SPM, or drag factor. Perhaps some or all of those can be adjusted to accommodate your improved fitness.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

David Pomerantz
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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by David Pomerantz » January 17th, 2013, 11:38 am

Do many people decrease the drag factor as their conditioning improves? I didn't even appreciate that lower drag factor accommodates lower rate until I read it above and felt it afterward.

Dave

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Re: So what does rowing @ low rate do for me?

Post by David Pomerantz » January 17th, 2013, 11:42 am

By the way, after about 3 weeks of exclusively going long at low rating I went back and tried my standard 5k. Did it in my usual 19:57 or so at about 23spm. It felt maybe a bit easier than it has lately, but it was also a slightly higher rating than my more typical 21-22spm. So not really sure if there has been an effect one way or the other with the long slow low rating work.

Dave

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