Out of Shape

[drjay9051]

OK. So at 6 ft 268 pounds I am clearly not where I should be.

Over last couple of days I have just gotten used to the Concept 2. This morning did my first "real" piece.

I rowed a 2K. Tried to keep spm at 19-20. Frankly my time sucked: 8 min 58 sec !

I believe my SPM is in a good range. I am pretty strong so get a great drive.
I assume the force curve should be as symmetrical as possible. To achieve this I would need to pull pretty hard with the arms to match the leg drive. I have read here to NOT pull hard with the arms ?
So do I slack off with the drive to develop a smoother force curve or not?

I can really crank out quite a strong drive with the legs to the point where I think i'm going to break the footboard but I think this might be a bit much. Forget about the curve or check it from time to time?

After looking at my stats inc. Vo2 max I am not discouraged but motivated to climb the mountain. Just need a bit of guidance.

I will post a video in the next couple of days

Thanks

[jamesg]

Good start. Don't worry about force, it's the distance the handle travels that counts, the further the better.

[drjay9051]

Good start. Don't worry about force, it's the distance the handle travels that counts, the further the better.

So are you saying don't worry about the force curve or don't worry about force (effort put into drive)?

I'm just thinking I should drive as hard as I can with a lower SPM or I feel like I'm not putting in work. Does this make sense? I suppose I could do 18-20 SPM with less drive but this equates to less effort hence less "stress" on my muscular and cardiovascular system. Result: slower path to improved fitness.

I should add I do a high intensity Nautilus routine 3 times a week. I'm not bragging but when I say I'm strong I am way out there for 58 years of age.

I know to be "in shape" I must have cardiovascular fitness as well hence the Concept 2.

[Bob S.]

With regard to arm pull and leg push, it is not so much how each contributes, but the sequence. The big muscles of the legs get the acceleration of the wheel started, then the back joins in, and finally the arms finish it off - but only after the legs are straight. A video would certainly help to check that out.

Bob S.

[drjay9051]

With regard to arm pull and leg push, it is not so much how each contributes, but the sequence. The big muscles of the legs get the acceleration of the wheel started, then the back joins in, and finally the arms finish it off - but only after the legs are straight. A video would certainly help to check that out.

Bob S.

I have the sequence down, Bob.

I'm not "shooting" the slide or out of sequence. I just thought to have a symmetrical force curve I would need to have a very strong arm pull to match powerful leg drive. Maybe not.

I'll row tonight and watch the force curve as I vary the intensity of arm pull.

Again, I'm pretty sure my sequence is good inc. no knee bend on recovery till hands past knees, no excessive lean back etc.

I will work on a video.
Thanks for your input.

[j1huegel]

drjay,

I've found that stroke intensity is definitely the key to faster times for me. I'm also pretty new at this game, just 1.5M meters so far. I got a lot of value from watching Mike Spracklen's videos. He stresses a fast, intense stroke from catch to finish, with the recovery time varying to the rate. That keeps the wheel moving. I know at lower rates (<20) for me I tend to not put the energy/intensity into the stroke that I would at say 24. I've taken my 2k times from >8:00 to 7:14 and am shooting to break 7:00 this winter.

[drjay9051]

drjay,

I've found that stroke intensity is definitely the key to faster times for me. I'm also pretty new at this game, just 1.5M meters so far. I got a lot of value from watching Mike Spracklen's videos. He stresses a fast, intense stroke from catch to finish, with the recovery time varying to the rate. That keeps the wheel moving. I know at lower rates (<20) for me I tend to not put the energy/intensity into the stroke that I would at say 24. I've taken my 2k times from >8:00 to 7:14 and am shooting to break 7:00 this winter.

Do you pull hard with the arms or do they just "go along for the ride?"

[PaulH]

I believe your assumption about a symmetrical force curve is flawed. You're aiming to have as much area under the curve as possible, and given that your legs are much stronger than your arms that means that the curve will shoot up pretty quickly, stay high for a short while, then taper off (what has been described by a former contributor here as a 'left-leaning haystack').

[drjay9051]

I believe your assumption about a symmetrical force curve is flawed. You're aiming to have as much area under the curve as possible, and given that your legs are much stronger than your arms that means that the curve will shoot up pretty quickly, stay high for a short while, then taper off (what has been described by a former contributor here as a 'left-leaning haystack').

Got it. Search for force curve helped. There is sooo much info on the website. All helpful

[Bob S.]

I believe your assumption about a symmetrical force curve is flawed. You're aiming to have as much area under the curve as possible, and given that your legs are much stronger than your arms that means that the curve will shoot up pretty quickly, stay high for a short while, then taper off (what has been described by a former contributor here as a 'left-leaning haystack').

I was going to respond with much the same comment, but for some reason, I first Googled "left leaning haystack" and got a few early hits that were erg related. This one sort of stood out:

http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 17&start=0

The pertinent message, from Mikvan52 (Mike van Buren), was one that made me back off. Mike has strong credentials both OTE and OTW, so reading his negative comment about "LLH " was enough to make me refrain from recommending it.

There were a few other hits on the subject as well, but I didn't take the time to go any further.

Bob S.

[PaulH]

That's a fair comment Bob. The mathematical ideal is to have a force curve that rises immediately to maximum pressure and stays there until the end of the stroke, where it drops immediately to zero (this isn't true in a boat, I'd guess). In practice that's not possible; the initial ramp-up will be a little off vertical, and the end will tend to fade off somewhat. Check out http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 90#p144443 for a reasonable target. And remember that the goal isn't to have a pretty force curve, it's just a guide!

[jamesg]

are you saying don't worry about the force curve or don't worry about force

Both. The erg measures work, not force, hence the name. Work shifts boats and is Force x Length, so are only important when combined. Training for rowing comes from doing large numbers of long strokes, and you're off to a good start because you did a 9 minute 2k at 20; 11 m/stroke. 5-10k/day at that level, faster if you find it easy, is not a lot of work if we're thinking of weight loss, but is enough to get us fit quick and keep us there.

To start with you may like to use HR as control, staying within say 75% of Range, which helps complete the distance; once you know yourself and what happens, Watts or pace take over and HR becomes a monitor only.

As for arms, these contribute around 10% of total work, but legs can reach maybe 70%, which is why boats and ergs have slides.
If you do a backstop drill you can see the separate contribution of legs, trunk and arms:

Set to Watts, back straight, low drag.

Then pull arms only for 2 minutes at rating 60; you'll probably see around 60W, which implies 1W/armstroke.
Then add swing to the recovery, after hands away: rating 30-40, maybe 100W, which implies arms plus trunk are worth 3W/stroke.
Then gradually add slow slide travel, after the swing forward, until you reach the chainguard, with your weight on your feet: 20 at 200W, so 10W/stroke, of which 7 from the legs.
You are now warm, full length and ready to go, so do; as slow as is needed to reach the distance.

After 20-30 minutes you'll be hot, relaxed and sweaty and can start to wind it up for the finish.

[SaBhava]

Hi drjay9051,

way to go! I managed to drop 25 kg by rowing and found it a great way to loose weight. It is easy on the joints. Personally, I just followed the general advice of doing 3 session a week of 40' of light intensity rowing with an heart rate between 65-70% of my heart rate maximum. It was great fun to see the kilos go away!
After getting in shape I found following training programs and setting goals like doing the 2k sub7 (which I am still working on) a great way continuously motivate me.

Cheers,
SB

(btw forswearing a second or even third helping and boarding the water-wagon also helped a great deal!)

[j1huegel]

My arms are loose and relaxed until just after the catch. I power with my legs, then as I stretch out my core I pull in "explosively" with the arms and more, with the back muscles. More a Yank than a Pull. I make a point to impact the handle to my heart rate strap. Then I relax on the recovery.