What's Considered good?

[Cyclingman1]

I can see rowing slowly with very strong pulls for strength training. However, strong pulls require lots of rest between pulls. As far as slow rowing for best times that is another question. As I posted earlier, all aspects of rowing technique depend on so many individual factors. I suspect that heavier rowers find slow rowing more fitted to their body type, while LW rowers must rely on turnover. And I would wonder if older rowers have the strength to maximize times when rowing slowly. I would like to know what Henrik's drag factor was - just aother piece of data.

If they are rowing a 10K, they will likely be rowing about 15 second slower split and about 10 to 15 SPM lower than if they are rowing a 2K.

Greg, I think these differentials are a bit overstated. The pace between 2K and 10K for top rowers I think would be under 10 secs. As far as stroke rate, I'm very skeptical of the 15 SPM delta. What happens with 10K is not so much that the rate goes down as the force on each pull must go down. One simply cannot sustain those kinds of power output for 10K. If the force goes down the rate cannot also go down much. The reduced force obviously results in lower speed.

[johnlvs2run]

I would like to know what Henrik's drag factor was - just another piece of data.

I believe he uses a drag factor of 120, and definitely 120 for Ebbesen.

[NavigationHazard]

(snip) In fact I doubt that Stephansen ever rows anything at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive. Conversely, the Danes go up to 50-60 spm at times, in addition to the 40 spm training. LIghtweight Eskild Ebbesen could reach 1:09 in a sprint. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm07/dm07_herre_let.swf

At the risk of allowing Stephensen himself to comment on his training, rather than Rupp fantasizing about it, here's his webpage blog from March 4 this year: http://www.henrikstephansen.com/roning-med-rode-band/

Note the OTW session he says he's recently taken up: 3 x 2k r20 max pressure with a boat strap on the programme, for strength training. And at the end he proposes to modify it to 6 x 1k. The idea is to use the strap to increase the drag dramatically to accentuate the low-rate strength-training (and possibly technical) effects.

[johnlvs2run]

he says he's recently taken up: 3 x 2k r20 max pressure with a boat strap on the programme, for strength training. And at the end he proposes to modify it to 6 x 1k. The idea is to use the strap to increase the drag dramatically to accentuate the low-rate strength-training (and possibly technical) effects.

Wrong. Why didn't you just quote him directly.

English translation

I had heard that it could also be used as a technical exercise. I disagree and believe there is great potential for strengthening technique.

I've always said the only purpose of low rates is for strength, not technique, the same that Stephansen says, and the same as suggested by Greg/Cyclingman. In fact, low rate rowing is bad for technique, readily shown by the number of rowers who do it and are not able to maintain their speed over distance.

I have now taken an old concept known up, namely training with ropes for the boat to increase resistance.

This was March 4, 2012. Stephansen's WR was in 2009, three years ago.

The idea that just getting stronger would result in faster times is a simplistic idea that does not work in practice.

[NavigationHazard]

What you said was "In fact I doubt that Stephansen ever rows anything at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive."

Clearly he does row at 20 spm - the web page is all about rowing productively at 20 spm. You were wrong.

As for whether or not he agrees that 20 spm rope rowing is beneficial for technique, his coaches clearly told him it is. I leave it to a native Danish speaker (or Stephensen himself) to say definitively whether he meant "Det er jeg enig i," (With this I agree) or "Det er jeg uenig i." I personally think the passage makes more sense translated something like "From the training session, I'd heard that it could also be used as a technical exercise. I agree with this, and believe there is great potential for enhancing technique." In either event, some people -- Stephensen's Olympic-squad coach(es) -- think there's both a strength and also a technical benefit to his doing 20 spm rope rowing in a boat.

[johnlvs2run]

the web page is all about rowing productively at 20 spm.

Again, that is not what he said. Why don't you just quote him directly from the page. English translation

I had heard that it could also be used as a technical exercise. I disagree and believe there is great potential for strengthening technique.

He does not say row rates are productive, but that they have potential as a strengthening exercise. I agree with Stephansen. If you want to get stronger, do them. If you want to get faster, then don't.

As for whether or not he agrees that 20 spm rope rowing is beneficial for technique, his coaches clearly told him it is.

Where exactly on that page did his coaches clearly tell him the low rate rowing is good, especially when they never had him or any of the Danish rowers do it before. I'm curious, and exactly who is making up fantasies of low rates?

I don't even find the word "coach" on that page.

[NavigationHazard]

What part of "Henrik Stephensen does indeed row at 20 spm" do you find so difficult? You said you doubted he ever rowed at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive. I provided evidence -- from Stephansen -- of a planned session at 20 spm carried out on or about March 4 2012. You were wrong.

There are two possibilities. Either his coaches (the people setting his program) stupidly had him do a "counterproductive" session in his buildup to the Olympics; or else they thought it might have merit towards putting him on the medals podium. My money's on the latter.

Edit. I'm out of any further comments in this thread.

[hjs]

A nice rup discussion, if snow is black it is black.

[johnlvs2run]

You said you doubted he ever rowed at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive.

My statement was correct.

In fact I doubt that Stephansen ever rows anything at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive.

Fact: I doubted Stephansen ever rows anything at 20 spm ---- TRUE
Fact: I said rowing at 20 spm would be counterproductive ----- TRUE
Fact: I previously experimented with rowing at 20 spm ---- TRUE
Fact: It doesn't surprise me that Stephansen would experiment --- TRUE

A nice rup discussion, if snow is black it is black.

Fact: I have lived in the North, seen black snow, and yellow snow ---- TRUE

[hjs]

A nice rup discussion, if snow is black it is black.

Fact: I have lived in the North, seen black snow, and yellow snow ---- TRUE

So black is yellow

[johnlvs2run]

So black is yellow

Maybe, but I'm not going to try it.

[Carl Watts]

Fact: Snow is yellow......after your dog pisses on it

Fact: Low Rate training works for Heavyweights....or perhaps somehow lightweights are different ?

It works because 6 years ago the best I could acheive was 1:55 pace at 28spm at max HR and falling off the Erg after 20 minutes. How things have changed with 17-18spm sub 2:00 pace distance training rows.

[Cyclingman1]

Somehow the main point of the discussion about what is a best strokes per minute is being missed or ignored.
In the first place it is individualized. What prompted me to weigh in on the subject is that in every topic I have seen some newbie starts telling of his first efforts and them immediately he gets people telling him that he needs to row at 20 SPM. As though that is some sort of ideal rowing rate. It is not. It is a rate that suits some people better than others. I personally think that it appeals to heavier rowers who tend to have more strength than aerobic fitness. Just because someone achieves personal bests at a low rate still does not make it best for everyone else. The Scandinavian dude that sets world records at 40 SPM is a good case. If he was better at 20 SPM, he would be doing 20 SPM. I don't think I've seen anyone saying that if 20 SPM gives the best results for someone, to not row that pace. On the other hand, it may be all wrong for others. I know for me it is. I can't stand to row at 20 SPM. If I'm not mistaken, what counts is pace per 500m. Many aspects of rowing go into achieving the lowest pace. It is not just SPM. A lot of it is unmeasurable.

[johnlvs2run]

Cyclingman, you make very good points. Perhaps it is the case that Carl's and other's best spm is in the range of 17-24 spm.

My personal experience is that my limit on low rates is mechanical. I can do them hard and not get out of breath, so they are not as much of a challenge to me in that regard, and not a complete challenge to my system. Due to the mechanical reasons, my size, the length of my torso and arms, height and weight, they are not nearly as fast for me compared to rowing at my optimum ratings, whatever they are, that result in my fastest times on the monitor.

For me to reach my best times, I need to have the challenge to not be limited by predetermined size or trying to change something that's not going to be changed, but by improving in ways that I am able to change. The way to do this for me is to focus on improving myself within my personal abilities, not trying to change into something I'm not.

[hjs]

It works because 6 years ago the best I could acheive was 1:55 pace at 28spm at max HR and falling off the Erg after 20 minutes. How things have changed with 17-18spm sub 2:00 pace distance training rows.

You can fall of the erg at any given rate if you push yourself to the max. The fact you could not pull 1.55 was not the rating but your fitness. You now are simply fitter.

I seldom row lowrate long stuff, am the same age as you and same height and I am faster. That means just as much as what you are saying.

Rating in itself says nothing, using a good stroke does, just going up and down without putting effort in will not be good, it would be like running with very little strides.
Rowing at lows rates with lots of force would also not be very wise, if would be like running with jumps instead of strides.

The truth is to be found in the middle, the fitter, lighter and shorter you are, the higher the rating. But for 2k rating will vary between roughly 28 and 40 for 99% of ergers and I think 80/90 % of rowers will use a rating between 30/35 for a max race.

Ps snow is always white, if not it is not snow but poluted snow.