What's Considered good?

[Carl Watts]

I guess this highlights the difference between the OTW rower and the Erg Junkie.

Even speaking as just an Erg junkie I can see why the serious OTW rower tends not to like the Erg. The biggest problem is the Erg is just numbers and brute force and things that work on the Erg don't work in a boat. Short sliding and high ratings to get good times just don't cut in OTW.

Being a bit of a purist however i like to think that at least some of what I am doing on the Erg lines up with what you would expect in a boat and hence significantly dropping the rating to get good power per stroke has been a focus.

[Bob S.]

I guess this highlights the difference between the OTW rower and the Erg Junkie.

Even speaking as just an Erg junkie I can see why the serious OTW rower tends not to like the Erg. The biggest problem is the Erg is just numbers and brute force and things that work on the Erg don't work in a boat. Short sliding and high ratings to get good times just don't cut in OTW.

Being a bit of a purist however i like to think that at least some of what I am doing on the Erg lines up with what you would expect in a boat and hence significantly dropping the rating to get good power per stroke has been a focus.

To me the difference is in the great feeling I get being out on the water with the scenery and all the variety of conditions that make it challenging. The erg is a fine exercise machine and the competition has been fun, although I suspect that it would not have been all that much fun if I were average in my bracket. But, for me, it is always a poor substitute to being out on the water. I have really missed it during the last 10 years since I moved to the desert.

Bob S.

[Carl Watts]

Hey Bob, stuck in the Desert and still not using RowPro to get the feeling of OTW ?

The scenery changes and so do the rowers you meet online and row with. Takes the Erg to a whole new level. I can highly recomend putting a 42" or larger Flat panel TV on the wall as a monitor to further enhance the experience !

[johnlvs2run]

high ratings to get good times just don't cut in OTW.

I've not noticed any top rowers who race at 20 spm in a boat.
Almost all of them race at 38-43 spm for lightweights, and 36-38 for heavies.
It's pretty much the same as the erg, except many more people race at LOW ratings on the erg.
The problem with the erg is that it more greatly favors weight and brute strength, with no penalty
for one's weight, as there is naturally on the water. That is a major problem with the rowing machine.
Here's a video of Henrik Stephansen's 5:58.5 WR in 2009. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm09/dm09.swf

[hjs]

high ratings to get good times just don't cut in OTW.

I've not noticed any top rowers who race at 20 spm in a boat.
Almost all of them race at 38-43 spm for lightweights, and 36-38 for heavies.
It's pretty much the same as the erg, except many more people race at LOW ratings on the erg.
The problem with the erg is that it more greatly favors weight and brute strength, with no penalty
for one's weight, as there is naturally on the water. That is a major problem with the rowing machine.
Here's a video of Henrik Stephansen's 5:58.5 WR in 2009. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm09/dm09.swf

Racing is not training, but without any exceptions top are set are high ratings, only some tall heavyweights do rate low on longer pieces 5 k and up and still get good results.

The 30min rate 20 test often done by otw rowers is at best just below 1.40 pace, free rate that will be considerable faster and higher rated.

[Cyclingman1]

I really do not think that it adds much to a discussion to refer to users of the Concept 2 exercise machine as “junkies.” I dare say many, if not most, users of the C2 come to it for its fitness benefits and not because it does or does not mimic OTW rowing. Speaking personally, I’ve never been an OTW rower and never will. The logistics, time, costs, etc make OTW a vastly different experience. I happen to be a pretty good cyclist. I do not, however, refer to users of indoor cycling machines as “junkies.”

I will point out that the C2 forums are, for the most part, for users of the C2 erg irrespective of OTW involvement. OTW rowing may not be totally irrelevant to C2 erg practice, but it certainly is not a primary consideration. Many OTW rowers have pointed out that the C2 erg is not all great as an OTW substitute and have moved on to something else.

It undoubtedly is quite difficult to compare the two experiences, let alone suggesting that techniques, pacing, etc translate more or less directly from one to the other. If anyone wants to use the C2 erg as training for OTW rowing, that is fine with me. But that does not mean that using the C2 erg for that purpose is the ideal for everyone else.

[Bob S.]

I really do not think that it adds much to a discussion to refer to users of the Concept 2 exercise machine as “junkies.” I dare say many, if not most, users of the C2 come to it for its fitness benefits and not because it does or does not mimic OTW rowing. Speaking personally, I’ve never been an OTW rower and never will. The logistics, time, costs, etc make OTW a vastly different experience. I happen to be a pretty good cyclist. I do not, however, refer to users of indoor cycling machines as “junkies.”

To me the expression "junkies" implies addiction and I feel that it is quite appropriate to any of us who feel a strong compulsion for any particular activity. In my uni days, over 60 years ago, I definitely felt that my participation in crew was an addiction. Just because "junkies" has a pejorative flavor to it doesn't mean that it is not apt.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Hey Bob, stuck in the Desert and still not using RowPro to get the feeling of OTW ?

The scenery changes and so do the rowers you meet online and row with. Takes the Erg to a whole new level. I can highly recomend putting a 42" or larger Flat panel TV on the wall as a monitor to further enhance the experience !

I do use it Carl and my 24" screen is quite adequate - anything larger would be a needless expense. The waters of Alamitos Bay (Long Beach, CA), which is heavily overbuilt and has a concrete lined side channel with a view of oil derricks and a steaming power plant, are not exactly the natural paradise that Byron shows in his photos on this forum, but there is still an abundance of wild life and it certainly beats the virtual river of RowPro. Rowing with others online has no appeal whatsoever for me. I seriously doubt that there are many octogenarians in the RowPro ranks. There are many features of RowPro that I appreciate, but I have had a lot of annoying problems with it and some of them still crop up.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

The word "junkie" is not all that harmless. It implies a lack of sensibility, even fanaticism, that is not all that good for the person. It is being used here as pertaining to those who somehow undermine "true" rowers, that is, OTW rowers, and do not understand the subtleties of rowing. Such "junkies" distort or have too much influence. Using a C2 erg has nothing to do with OTW rowing for most people, regardless of their level of dedication. Liking to do something and doing it often does not make one addicted or a "junkie." The word discredits and is dismissive towards those who do not merit such. This is a C2 training discussion topic, not an OTW training thread.

[Atorrante]

I just want to said that in 8 years addicted to indoor rowing, never has thinked that I can row OTW. I has ever feeled that OTW rowing is substantially different to indoor rowing, and that if ever want to try it, it is little, if something, what my training indoor may help. And as being part of this forum for almost 8 years don't like to be treated as a junkie, precisely by its pejorative connotation.

[Cyclingman1]

Here's a video of Henrik Stephansen's 5:58.5 WR in 2009. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm09/dm09.swf

This video shows one of the best indoor rowers of the last five years rowing at a consistent 40 strokes per min and even getting into the mid-40s at the start and end of his session. Admittedly, this person is going for a world record. However, one cannot change an approach all that much just to row a world record. Obviously, this person does a whole lot of rowing at or near 40 strokes per min. If he did not not, he would have died over the last third of his effort. In watching the rower's form, I could see no distortion in his technique. I have no idea what this video says about him rowing at 20 strokes per min as some sort of best way of training. But count me as very skeptical of any such claim.

[Nosmo]

I've not noticed any top rowers who race at 20 spm in a boat.

Of course not, but all* do a large proportion of their training at low ratings. There are more reasons to row at low ratings in a boat then on the erg, but there are still a number of good reasons. They may not be compelling enough for those who are not near the Olympic level or not trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of the erg.

*or almost all depending on your definition of "top"

[Bob S.]

The word "junkie" is not all that harmless. It implies a lack of sensibility, even fanaticism, that is not all that good for the person. It is being used here as pertaining to those who somehow undermine "true" rowers, that is, OTW rowers, and do not understand the subtleties of rowing. Such "junkies" distort or have too much influence. Using a C2 erg has nothing to do with OTW rowing for most people, regardless of their level of dedication. Liking to do something and doing it often does not make one addicted or a "junkie." The word discredits and is dismissive towards those who do not merit such. This is a C2 training discussion topic, not an OTW training thread.

In this thread it was introduced by a strictly OTE rower referring to himself so it certainly wasn't intended in the way that you described.

Bob S., former OTW junkie, 10 years in forced remission.

[gregsmith01748]

Here's a video of Henrik Stephansen's 5:58.5 WR in 2009. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm09/dm09.swf

This video shows one of the best indoor rowers of the last five years rowing at a consistent 40 strokes per min and even getting into the mid-40s at the start and end of his session. Admittedly, this person is going for a world record. However, one cannot change an approach all that much just to row a world record. Obviously, this person does a whole lot of rowing at or near 40 strokes per min. If he did not not, he would have died over the last third of his effort. In watching the rower's form, I could see no distortion in his technique. I have no idea what this video says about him rowing at 20 strokes per min as some sort of best way of training. But count me as very skeptical of any such claim.

I think what you would find for any of the best OTW or OTE rowers is a pretty direct relationship between pace and rate. If they are rowing a 10K, they will likely be rowing about 15 second slower split and about 10 to 15 SPM lower than if they are rowing a 2K. In many training plans, especially the Worverine plan, also in Lisa Schlenker's "ERG" book, there are pretty specific guidelines about rate. The intent of these guidelines is to train the rower to always pull powerful strokes and if you are going for a longer piece take more time between those powerful strokes, instead of pulling wimpier strokes at the same rate.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

I was a proud Erg junkie, but that turned out to be just the gateway drug to a blossoming addiction to OTW...

[johnlvs2run]

Here's a video of Henrik Stephansen's 5:58.5 WR in 2009. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm09/dm09.swf

This video shows one of the best indoor rowers of the last five years rowing at a consistent 40 strokes per min and even getting into the mid-40s at the start and end of his session. Admittedly, this person is going for a world record. However, one cannot change an approach all that much just to row a world record. Obviously, this person does a whole lot of rowing at or near 40 strokes per min. If he did not not, he would have died over the last third of his effort. In watching the rower's form, I could see no distortion in his technique. I have no idea what this video says about him rowing at 20 strokes per min as some sort of best way of training. But count me as very skeptical of any such claim.

Actually that was me who posted the video, the point of it being exactly as you said, that the top rowers do a whole lot of rowing at or near 40 strokes per minute. In fact I doubt that Stephansen ever rows anything at 20 spm, as that would be counterproductive. Conversely, the Danes go up to 50-60 spm at times, in addition to the 40 spm training. LIghtweight Eskild Ebbesen could reach 1:09 in a sprint. http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm07/dm07_herre_let.swf