Getting HR up on Concept2

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
jasperm
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Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jasperm » April 2nd, 2012, 4:00 pm

Hi - I'm new to the Concept 2 and rowing, though not new at all to training. I use a heart rate zone training approach and want to be able to get my HR up to the appropriate zone.
I'm finding it difficult to figure out what to adjust in my rowing to increase my HR. On the treadmill, I increase speed or incline, on a bike I change gearing or resistance on trainer.

On a rower - should I be adjusting: Pace? Stroke Rate? Damper Setting?
When I get it on it now and row at a fairly reasonable level of exertion, I'm not getting into my aerobic zone at all. Should I be pulling harder on each stroke? Faster on each stroke? Increasing stroke rate? Etc...

Thanks for your help.

Michael :?:

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pberge
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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by pberge » April 2nd, 2012, 5:10 pm

The simple answer is to row at a faster pace. How to achieve a faster pace will depend on how you are currently rowing.

The first thing you should do is make sure your technique is correct, you are utilizing as much power from your legs as possible and using a full length, smooth stroke.

If you are already using a high stroke rate (30+ spm), you probably won't be able to increase it much and will need to apply more power to each stroke.

If your technique and power per stroke are already very good, then you can start increasing your stroke rate.

As your pace gets faster, the amount of power required starts to increase rapidly because of the cubic relationship between power and the speed of the flywheel.

You can calculate the power required to maintain any pace here: http://www.concept2.com/us/interactive/ ... /watts.asp

Here are a few examples.
2:00/500 = 202.5 watts
1:50/500 = 263
1:40/500 = 350

As you can see, once you get below 2:00/500m a small change in pace will require a significant increase in power and result in an increased HR.

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Carl Watts
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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by Carl Watts » April 2nd, 2012, 5:24 pm

One of the most important things to understand as a new rower is the Drag Factor.

You can find this number on your PM2 or PM3/4 Monitor by bringing it up on screen then rowing.

You adjust the damper on the fan to change the actual DF the monitor uses to calculate your pace.

The most common mistake for a new rower is to rate to high and also have the drag set to high. The right combination of rating (Strokes per minute), DF and pace and distance will take your heartrate to the maximum !

You would need to post your age, weight, height and sports background along with some information like the pace your rowing at and DF etc before we could comment on what you need to change.
Carl Watts.
Age:56 Weight: 108kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

jasperm
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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jasperm » April 2nd, 2012, 5:50 pm

Thanks both of you.
I'm 54, 180 lb, 5'9". Been active in martial arts and biking for many years, also running on treadmill last six months or so.
Added rowing to the mix very recently. Aerobically, I'm probably about average fitness - working on improving that and dropping some weight.

My stroke rate has been pretty low - I think 22-24. Don't remember what my pace was last time I rowed - will check tonight and post back.
I have the damper on my Model D set to 5 -5.5, but will have to check the DF.
I think I've had some trouble increasing stroke rate - but not due to feeling tired and certainly not due to aerobic limitation - it's more I'm not sure exactly what to do to increase it - which sounds dumb, but maybe isn't.
Should I be pulling harder each stroke, or actually decreasing DF so I can pull more strokes more quickly? Etc. Or trying to increase stroke rate but not decreasing DF?
What I find confusing is that unlike biking where the motion is constant, here there's the effort/speed in the drive, but then there's also the ratio of time in the drive vs recovery, and I suppose a potential pause before you start the next cycle?
So it seems that you could potentially increase stroke rate without doing anything different in the drive, if you shorten the recovery time. Complicated!

Michael

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by Citroen » April 2nd, 2012, 7:12 pm

jasperm wrote:... and I suppose a potential pause before you start the next cycle?
No pauses. It's a single fluid continuous motion.

If you can get a video posted on YouTube then post the link here and a whole bunch of folks will tell you what they think of your stroke and where any improvements can be made.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jvincent » April 2nd, 2012, 7:13 pm

jasperm wrote: So it seems that you could potentially increase stroke rate without doing anything different in the drive, if you shorten the recovery time. Complicated!

Michael
Actually for more power/exertion you want to do the opposite. I.e. a shorter, but more powerful drive followed by an easier recovery.

I usually row my regular workouts at 21-22 SPM and my 500m pace varies between 2:00 and 2:06. The difference is how much force I put into the drive.

If you are doing a sprint such as a timed 500m or 2K then to get a good time your SPM will naturally be higher, but you still want each stroke to be as powerful as possible and the power comes from the drive.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jamesg » April 3rd, 2012, 1:22 am

On a rower - should I be adjusting: Pace? Stroke Rate? Damper Setting?
Stroke length. The purpose of rowing is to shift boats. This is done using levers that are more usually called oars, or sculls; and the further the oar handle travels, the further the boat goes. Making a boat go large distances fast involves work, and this is what gets us fit.

So you can do two things:
Increase your stroke length;
Increase your rating.

Suggest you start with the first, the second is much more difficult and extremely hard work; in any case the first is a sine qua non.

It looks like this:
http://www.britishrowing.org/taking-par ... ing-stroke
Note that the blade is in the water for just two photos of 8: we let the boat go, she will.

and this:
http://www.britishrowing.org/taking-par ... oke/indoor
Note the words too:
The rowing machine is one of the few pieces of training apparatus found in a gym that requires a moderate degree of technical competence to both maximise the benefit of training and ensure that you do not injure yourself. At the moment, there are not many rowing-trained fitness instructors.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by PaulH » April 3rd, 2012, 1:36 am

One qualification on what jamesg said - a long stroke length is good, but not too long. You'll see some people at the gym pulling the handle up to their heads, which is a harmful exaggeration. Study the videos on the C2 site and you'll see how to get the correct long length.

Something else to consider is that you're not supporting your weight on a rowing machine, as you are when running, so your heart rate is naturally going to be lower for a given effort. That means you'll need to adjust your heart rate zones accordingly.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by hjs » April 3rd, 2012, 3:48 am

PaulH wrote:One qualification on what jamesg said - a long stroke length is good, but not too long. You'll see some people at the gym pulling the handle up to their heads, which is a harmful exaggeration. Study the videos on the C2 site and you'll see how to get the correct long length.

Something else to consider is that you're not supporting your weight on a rowing machine, as you are when running, so your heart rate is naturally going to be lower for a given effort. That means you'll need to adjust your heart rate zones accordingly.
On the erg you can get just a high a hf as in running, but it takes times to learn how you can go hard enough to reach that, if you want that ofcourse.
The most important number by far is the pace or watts, those are the same in a different way presented.
You can go faster in two ways, makes the stroke stronger, push/ harder or make the recovery faster/ increese the rating, combining the 2 is the most logic.
It would make sense to increese the rate if your pace goes up.
Drag is of importance but not that much, use what feels the best. For sprinting that will be a bit higher.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by kayakr » April 3rd, 2012, 9:14 am

Interval work should be able to get your heart rate up. Muscular endurance may be the limiting factor for long slow distance but you can work harder for 500m's or by throwing in "power 20's" (20 hard strokes). This should also help build strength to improve LSD paces as well.

Other threads have also discussed that your HR is likely to be lower rowing (and kayaking) because of the body position.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by Byron Drachman » April 3rd, 2012, 11:09 am

jasperm wrote:Hi - I'm new to the Concept 2 and rowing, though not new at all to training. I use a heart rate zone training approach and want to be able to get my HR up to the appropriate zone.
I'm finding it difficult to figure out what to adjust in my rowing to increase my HR. On the treadmill, I increase speed or incline, on a bike I change gearing or resistance on trainer.

On a rower - should I be adjusting: Pace? Stroke Rate? Damper Setting?
When I get it on it now and row at a fairly reasonable level of exertion, I'm not getting into my aerobic zone at all. Should I be pulling harder on each stroke? Faster on each stroke? Increasing stroke rate? Etc...

Thanks for your help.

Michael :?:
Hi Michael,

With your cycling background you probably have lots of leg strength. In order to take advantage, you want to get connected, hang on the handle, get light on the seat, or whatever terminology you prefer. Let me paste a good description of getting connected by a coach who used to post at the forum:
--snip--It really then depends on what the problem is that you're having with the leg drive. In order to complete the diagnosis you need to understand the concept of connection. When you are in the drive phase of the stroke, you are basically attached to the machine by two points: your hands and your feet. Your body forms a linkage between the two. The instant this strong linkage is destroyed, you will no longer be getting power out of your leg muscles effectively into the handle.

You need to feel this connection all the way through the drive therefore.

--snip--However far more likely is that you are not getting connected. A few ideas:

Use a length of rope wrapped round the handle and chain guard (vertical bit below the monitor) to fix the handle at the catch. Then push with your legs to lift your bum about an inch off the seat (no more). Now hold the position for up to a minute. Do not let your bum rise any higher, or let your bum move backwards away from your heels. This is what being connected feels like. Leave your arms straight - if you bend your arms you will sit back down.

Then put the damper right up on 10 and row at quite a low rate ( 16-18 ). Don't hurry out of frontstops. Try and get the feeling of being light on your seat before you let the seat move away from your heels. You'll need to time the change of direction quite well to do this. Don't worry about being quick through the drive - it's not important.

Then drop the damper back to 3-4 and try and row without using any muscular effort at all. Just hook your weight onto the handle and then let your bodyweight take you backwards. As an extension to this, when you get to 2/3 of the drive done, just put a tiny blip of muscular force in to accelerate the legs and back through to the finish of the stroke together.

Then just build it up from there, but always keep connecting first! No matter how fast you're going (other than a 100m sprint!) it's very rare that you see people coming out of frontstops too slowly.

Mel Harbour

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jasperm » April 3rd, 2012, 12:19 pm

Hey everyone - thanks for the great feedback.
So last night i did 5000 m.
I took some of your suggestions, faster, harder drive, easier recovery. Also slightly lowered DF from 130 to 118.
Ended up with time of 27:03, avg pace 2:42, avg power 82 W, Avg SPM 26
For the first time, this got my HR up into my aerobic zone - low end but still better than I've managed before.
HR got into aerobic zone when I got my power over 95W and stroke rate around 27-28.

Am I on the right track?

Oh - I don't think length of my stroke is the main issue - I've studied the videos and instructions and I am pulling all the way back, elbows down and in.

Any more suggestions would be welcome!

Michael

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by Bob S. » April 3rd, 2012, 12:37 pm

jasperm wrote:Hey everyone - thanks for the great feedback.
So last night i did 5000 m.
I took some of your suggestions, faster, harder drive, easier recovery. Also slightly lowered DF from 130 to 118.
Ended up with time of 27:03, avg pace 2:42, avg power 82 W, Avg SPM 26
For the first time, this got my HR up into my aerobic zone - low end but still better than I've managed before.
HR got into aerobic zone when I got my power over 95W and stroke rate around 27-28.

Am I on the right track?

Oh - I don't think length of my stroke is the main issue - I've studied the videos and instructions and I am pulling all the way back, elbows down and in.

Any more suggestions would be welcome!

Michael
It should not be necessary to take the rate up. My most recent 5k (2/26/2012) was done at a steady 24 spm in a time of 23:13.4 (2:19.3/500, 129 ave. watts). The DF was most likely at about 115. HR range 105-141, ave. 133.

Make sure that you are getting the full benefit of the push with the legs. That is the key to a strong drive for most people.

Bob S. 5'10" 168# 87yo

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jvincent » April 3rd, 2012, 1:04 pm

jasperm wrote:Hey everyone - thanks for the great feedback.
So last night i did 5000 m.
I took some of your suggestions, faster, harder drive, easier recovery. Also slightly lowered DF from 130 to 118.
Ended up with time of 27:03, avg pace 2:42, avg power 82 W, Avg SPM 26
For the first time, this got my HR up into my aerobic zone - low end but still better than I've managed before.
HR got into aerobic zone when I got my power over 95W and stroke rate around 27-28.

Am I on the right track?
Getting there.

Your SPM is still too high for the power you are generating though. I had a similar problem when I first started.

Try switching your PM to display watts. Practice at low stroke rate for a while but working on your technique until you can get higher power numbers. Once you get the feel for what a more powerful stroke is like you will be golden.

The comment about feeling connected all the way through the drive really captures it nicely. Another way I would phrase it is that you should be feeling resistance for the entire drive.

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Re: Getting HR up on Concept2

Post by jasperm » April 3rd, 2012, 1:26 pm

Fascinating. Suddenly, this sounds just like doing tai chi!

Will try the latest suggestions. You folks are great.

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