How to go about achieving a personal best

[Cyclingman1]

I simply wish to inject perhaps a different perspective in the discussion concerning best times, amount of training, and the like.

I can see those with a history of rowing long mileage continuing to do so. Such people have a muscle structure that permits such, not to mention the psychological satisfactions. I'm sure at the tip of the competitive world mega mileage gains sufficient seconds to win, although I am skeptical that there are not some very successful rowers with far less miles. And I can see weight control people sticking to long rowing bouts.

Time is a factor. Perhaps many in their sixties have far more time to row, but not all of us do.

I'm not quite sure that I accept Bob S. doctor's notion that one must be in a "zone" for 30 mins for exercise to be useful. I have little doubt when I row 5K that benefits are obtained.

As far as personal bests, I suggest that personal bests can be obtained on something way less than mega-miles. Of course, the target distance is important. And, of course, marathon runners and rowers need mega miles. Not so for 2K, 5K rowers. PB's require some intensity, and generally such workouts are relatively shorter.

Given time constraints, I know that I've averaged 18K a week in my rowing this year. I would like to get to 25K a week. I absolutely do not feel that I am depriving myself of an opportunity to improve. I like to row, but I have not the time to slog through mega miles and I really do not think it is necessary for health, fitness, personal bests, enjoyment, etc.

I don't condemn anyone for rowing a lot. Like I said, some have a long, successful history doing so. On the other hand, I don't think it is particularly useful to practically insist that anything short of mega miles somehow shortchanges one from all of the benefits of rowing.

[Bob S.]

Time is a factor. Perhaps many in their sixties have far more time to row, but not all of us do.

I'm not quite sure that I accept Bob S. doctor's notion that one must be in a "zone" for 30 mins for exercise to be useful. I have little doubt when I row 5K that benefits are obtained.

I fully agree that time constraints make a lot of difference. That is why I liked to do the all in one workouts. In a 40' period I could do the warmup, workout, and cool down and still meet the 30' of continuous exercise in the zone requirement. As I understand it, the Pete Plan was developed by Pete Marston to fit into his lunch hour. Since the early version I saw had some of 15k workouts, it seems unlikely that he was doing warm ups and cool downs separately and it is certainly a heck of a lot more that us older folks can do in an hour. A more recent version has 8 - 15 instead of the 15.

With regard to that research study a decade ago, obviously the 30' is not a cutoff point with no benefit for less and all the benefit for 30 and more. LIke most physiological effects it should be a gradual increase in benefit. Also, it was specifically concerned with cardiovascular fitness, not muscle or skill development. I did have the strong impression that continuity was important - that a couple of 15' pieces with a break in between was less effective that the continuous 30'. This was a major complaint that I had with regard to the UK Interactive Programme (sic). The UT1 pieces are often broken up. Also, the recommended paces are too slow to get the heart rate up to the 80% level.

The fact that the followup study showed even further benefits on up to 60' encouraged me to longer rows.

I do have a very skeptical view of competition for the aged. Psychologically it is beneficial in providing incentive to stay at it, but it is counterproductive in that it often lures machismo types into overdoing it. Recovery time increases with age and I decided some time age that erging 5-6 days a week at a competition training level was no longer healthy for me. Cutting back to every other day reduced the frequency of illness. Also I admit that doing several FMs just to get good scores in the records was just plain stupidity on my part.

Bob S.

[Nosmo]

The laziest elite athlet I can remember was Greg LeMond who kept fit in the off-season but trained for the Tour de France by racing in the Giro Italia...which he rarely won.

A lot of bike racers use the Giro as Tour prep. And most of those who don't use the Tour of Switzerland instead. Most tour winners who raced the Giro do not win it although many have won both (and a few have won the triple crown--Giro, Tour and World Championships).

[mikvan52]

Getting back to the original question:
" It occured to me that I may be able to improve by putting more method into my madness!
Should I start slower and try to build up the speed as I go, or should I set myself the average speed required and try and hang in there for the distance or time? Should I set myself a rating and stick to it for the duration, or should I increase it over time and finish with a sprint? And how often should I go about trying to set a personal best in any event?"

Unanswered parts of your profile:

A chronology of your progress with times would be in order:
Have you plateaued for long?
What is your training volume historically... ?
(Sudden increase in volume can cause injury) ~Watch out. 10% increase per year is widely seen as a limit.

Sometimes dropping volume but increasing intensity produces great results.

Specifically: TO the question "should I set myself the average speed required and try and hang in there?"

yes. for longer distances, until you can sense that you can make it to the finish without blowing up..
Positive splitting isn't viable for racing to the best of our abilities.. @ Distance even more so.

How often?
Do you like to periodize your training year? I do.
In a building phase you probably have no need to race at all... Why waste the time...
I remember running marathons... there's no need to do more than a few a year if you are going for pbs...
I feel that 60' pieces on the erg are more forgiving but, again, why not be ready in mind and body...
PBs have a way of only coming when you are prepared.

I never wear a HR belt during a PB attempt but do when I am doing long SS pieces. I can gauge my effort level accordingly... and develop confidence by extrapolation from the harder workouts... I would advice all distance buffs to do the same...
Say if you erg 4x20'/3' rests once or twice a week at an even HR level... (just below AT) you can, over the weeks, see how you feel and become confident for your 1x60' at 85-90% HR.... Does this make sense?

= mikvan52

16,000+meters for the hour as a lwt 55-59
17:47 for 5k
training volume range 50-150,000m per week either on the erg on water; 3-4 million meters a year (likewise)
I highly recommend slides, or dynamic. or rowperfect... for your erg choice

[Carl Watts]

Well I always use a HR regardless as I find "How I Feel" to be pretty unreliable as it changes from day to day. Basically it is a Rev counter and once you know your bands and the time you can spend in them it allows you to push to the limits that you know are sustainable.

Just recently I have been using the total annual meters board and it is quite intereting to see that generally the faster rowers are not doing huge Km's. A good target to reach and sustain would be 50-70Km a week.

http://log.concept2.com/challenge/annua ... daily=7500

[Cyclingman1]

I suppose I've always been a bit contrary when it comes to training for a sport. I like to do it "my" way. I don't follow plans, don't use HR monitors, don't use coaches, etc. That probably sounds more defiant than meant to be. I'm not saying I'm stupid when it comes to training.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm new to rowing, but have a cycling background. When I first learned that people row 100K meters and more per week, I was/am taken aback. But I've always been an intensity trainer - within reason and on my own terms. I don't like to slog it out. I also do not do marathons. My max row will never be over 10K and I have yet to do even one of those.

I started rowing with any significance on Jan 9 this year, due to my X-Fit wife's encouragement. I am making progress on an average of 18K a week. My goal is to minimize my 2K time. I need more power and I look to 500m and 1000m repeats for that. I have not done any where near enough of those. But 5K stands out as a good training distance for me. It is not so much further than 2K that I cannot pull at a time/500m that is too much more. My target for 2K is 1:40/500m. I feel that 5K gives me the endurance that I need for 2K. The third 500m for 2K is hell.

My progress for 5K has been good. One might say that my first efforts are due only to my cycling. But more recently I would say that adaptability to rowing and actual rowing fitness have been the reason for my progress. I offer this data to show what one person is accomplishing on 18K a week. I wish I had more time to row, and maybe my progress would be better with more meters, but I suspect not much more.
5K progress:
Jan 18 - 19:30 - (1:56.9/500m)
Jan 28 - 18:31 - (1:51.1)
Feb 12 - 18:03 - (1:48.3)
Feb 26 - 17:43.4 (1:46.3)
Mar 26 - 17:34.0 (1:45.4) 32 SPM, 150 DF. Posted in 60-69, HWT rankings (C2Log). Third in the world this year. 0.9 sec out of 2nd place.

I plan to continue to use 5K as both a training distance and as a baramoter of my progress. I'm certain when I can do 17:20 for 5K, I can get the 6:40 I'm after for 2K, which for those who may not know is 1.4 s below the WR for 65+.

Since the original poster is 65, I offer this input as one example of what one can do in one's mid sixties. I am now 66.

I would like to repeat that I know my paltry miles will not stand up to an elite rower who does way more miles than me. I'll undoubtedly never catch the top 60-69 rower in the world TJ Osterling who has a prodigious rowing schedule. But I will get close, which I think is surprising some people in this forum.

[Bob S.]

I need more power and I look to 500m and 1000m repeats for that. I have not done any where near enough of those. But 5K stands out as a good training distance for me. It is not so much further than 2K that I cannot pull at a time/500m that is too much more. My target for 2K is 1:40/500m. I feel that 5K gives me the endurance that I need for 2K. The third 500m for 2K is hell.

Mar 26 - 17:34.0 (1:45.4) 32 SPM, 150 DF. Posted in 60-69, HWT rankings (C2Log). Third in the world this year. 0.9 sec out of 2nd place.

I plan to continue to use 5K as both a training distance and as a baramoter of my progress. I'm certain when I can do 17:20 for 5K, I can get the 6:40 I'm after for 2K, which for those who may not know is 1.4 s below the WR for 65+.

Your current 5k time would be consistent with a 6:38.9 2k. If you don't feel that you are there yet, then you are probably correct in saying that you need to work on power, such as doing 500m and 1k repeats (intervals?).

The 2k time I quoted is based on the concept of a 5" increase of pace for every doubling of distance. It is a common rule used to establish one's balance of power and endurance. It is not a hard and fast rule and is often mistakenly used as a predictor, but it does give a rough idea of what to work on.

Bob S.

[mikvan52]

Cyclingman1:
Big wink here! ..........
Interesting that you say that you don't follow plans and then go on to say that you first plan to erg a 5k in 17:20 so that you'll be able to hit 6:40 for 2k... Isn't that a plan of sorts?
Then there's the plan to not row sessions of 10k ~ for whatever reason... They're not grueling, BTW.. especially for cyclists who spend (more than) equally long times in the saddle. High 40 minute UT workouts either on the bike or the erg are great, wouldn't you say?

Would you characterize it that you do your foundation aerobic work on the bike and merely sharpen on the erg...?
Would it be fair to advise those who don't bike that they'd need to find a substitute for what you do on the bike in order to have the luxury of only doing short work on the erg?... especially if the PBs being sought are for 10k and the hour as the original poster suggested?

How many "meters" do you average on the bike during the bike season?

Generally, you seem to have an excellent cross training plan. Great results too!
Best of wishes in approaching the Osterling 5k mark of 17:13.
You only have to get 6% more powerful on each of the 500+ strokes it takes to do a 5k.

[Cyclingman1]

Bob S,

I may try 2K again soon. The 6:38.9 (1:39.7) rule of thumb does give encouragement. I have noticed that I need to feel pretty good to get a good 2K time. It is definitely more intense than 5K. I was 4 seconds slower on my last two 2K tries. I do feel that I have not worked hard enough at 500 and 1000m even though I know I need to.

I use the term "repeats" from my running days. There are those in the running community who insist that the exercise phase is a repeat and the rest phase is an interval.

[Cyclingman1]

MV,

You are correct; I do have a plan although it is highly flexible. I just know that I need to get in a few types of workouts within say a ten day period. I am doing pretty well with current distances and intensities. I'm still improving. If I was targeting marathons, obviously my approach does not hold water. I think that 10k is on the outer edge of what I need to do to improve 2 and 5K. I have done 3 or 4 30min rows, pretty slowly. I think I had around 8150 meters on one of them. Stay tuned, I'll do a 10K soon.

Yes, I would have to say that my cycling provides a decent base, but is quite a bit less than it was even just five years ago. I really have ridden only enough in the last few months to maintain some cycling fitness. Here it is at the end of March and have only 700 miles on the bike - not many by cycling standards. As I said, I have gained rowing fitness. In fact, my hard rowing efforts are noticeable on the bike. I have three 50 mile rides recently where I noticed my breathing feels very good. I did 4800 miles last yr. I expect to be below that this year with my start and my rowing interest.

And I agree that someone new to rowing who is/was not a recent athlete could hardly take my approach to rowing. They would require far more meters at a moderate pace. The newness to rowing and physical activity could lead to injury, especially if the intensity is ramped up. I know I am an odd case in some respects. But there may be others who semi-fit my profile.

I know you guys are waiting for me to cave on the minimal rowing I'm doing. I'm just feeling my way. If I have to ramp up to 50K a week, I'll be the first to admit it.

[jvincent]

I know you guys are waiting for me to cave on the minimal rowing I'm doing. I'm just feeling my way. If I have to ramp up to 50K a week, I'll be the first to admit it.

First off, I'm a lot younger than you AND in a lot worse shape so take this with a grain of salt.

50K a week for you should be no problem. I do around 35-40K a week and my workouts are limited to 30min on weekdays before work and at least one 10K on the weekend. Depending on my schedule I'll row 5 or 6 days in a week.

I laughed at your "slow" 30min of 8150. My PB for 30 is 7372. If I can do a 10K, you can. It will take you a lot less time than me.

[mikvan52]

I know you guys are waiting for me to cave on the minimal rowing I'm doing. I'm just feeling my way. If I have to ramp up to 50K a week, I'll be the first to admit it.

Not me. I admire your resolve to use an alternative approach. => Base mileage on the bike + Sharpen on the erg for the 2k focus...

I think that would work indefinitely for distances up to 5k... There's a lwt 60-64 Nowegian (The Viking... T.A. Simonsen) who does it that way. He won the 2011 CrashB w/6:50 in the 60-64 lwts... =< he's a great cyclist and a great erger like you... He gives up the erg every year to go do his cycling thing and then comes back to win races on the erg...
The Viking hates sitting on the erg for a long time, too...

Hope you get to meet all of us in Boston next February... Simonsen says he's coming... His English is quite good... you could compare notes...

= "MV" + b

[Cyclingman1]

All you 40's and 50's guys need to show me some mercy. It's tough crawling out of bed at 66, let alone row, bike, etc.
I bet Bob S could corroborate that. Being a long time basketball player, I have some creaky knees, though structurally sound. I've only had three surgeries.

I know I can do 10K. I actually did one a couple of yrs ago when I first got my C2. I know it was not a particularly good effort. [Have not done one in my new training era.] I never trained in 2010-11. I averaged around 4-5K a week - mostly in the fall and winter.

I looked up my 30 min effort. It was only 8121, not 8150, if that makes you feel any better.

I am seriously contemplating rowing before work. I may have to just to keep my miles up, let alone increasing. I just know getting my body going at 4AM may be a little rough. I would be more worried about injuries.

[Cyclingman1]

MV,

Funny you should mention Boston/Crash-B. You may have read in one of rants, er posts, that I was a qualifier from the Atlanta Erg Sprints this year. One of only two. I declined to come due to short notice - I hate to travel, esp to colder climates, and I knew I was not ready to compete. Of course, the wife was disappointed.

I have every intention of coming to Boston next Feb. I also plan on being a qualifier again from Atl. Of course, that is all assuming that I remain healthy, not hurt. I will undoubtedly be posting somewhere in the forum asking for reco's on hotels and the like. I'll probably make my reservations in the fall.

The Viking... T.A. Simonsen

Thanks for the tip on Simonsen. First concrete info I've had on someone like myself. I knew I was not a total nut case.

One thing - I'm not a great erger yet. Let's see where I am next Jan. I'm either going to be a great one or a burned out one by then.

[jvincent]

I looked up my 30 min effort. It was only 8121, not 8150, if that makes you feel any better.

Not really, but thanks anyway.

I hear you about early morning, although my definition of early is 6AM.