New Personal Best! Brag About That New Pb!

[rlk]

All you guys rowing in the 1:20's for 500m especially the mid 1:20's probably cannot appreciate what a luxury that is to have that kind of power and speed in your back pocket no matter what distance you are doing. Of course, I realize that we are all pysiologically different. Most of us are not made of the best from both worlds - great power and aerobic capacity.

Carl, you have much more balanced PB's, although you tend to the power side. I'm looking at that 6:56 (1:44) for 2K and wondering if that can't come down. I do 6:49 (1:42.2) for 2K and am right at 1:35 for 500m. I'm rowing far closer to my power capacity (500m best + 7 secs); in other words, I seem to have a high AT. You do 2K at a pace that is nearly 18 secs slower than your best 500m. But really interesting is that you slow down by about only 3 sec per 500m for 5K. Just observing - not a criticism.

I'm apparently rather extreme in the opposite direction. My single low pull is 1:26, and my best 1 minute (interval) is 341 meters (1:28). I'm sure I could do a better 500m than 1:36, but probably not under 1:32. I'm not in as good shape as I was a year ago, but even so 8200 in 30 minutes is routine (I did 8278 on Monday, without doing a 1:42 kick in the last 2 minutes like I sometimes do) and I have good 60 min and 1/2M numbers. Last Friday I did 8002 because I was curious where that would put my heart rate; it only got up to 155, and subjectively it wasn't more than 80-85% effort.

I use a much higher stroke rate in the longer pieces than it sounds like most people do. On Monday I was doing 29-30 with a drag factor probably around 115, which is typical when I do a long, fast piece (that's a bit faster than normal; typically I do 28-29). When I'm doing a long, slow recovery type piece (Wednesday I did 15275/60m, HR maxed at 149) I'm still up around 27. I've tried doing around 23 for that kind of thing, and while my HR is a bit lower, my back and knees express extreme displeasure at the abuse. For a while I was rowing with someone else who's an experienced rower and whose wife is a coach who was startled, to put it mildly, at my technique. Even when I'm cooling off at a 2:02-2:10 pace, I'm rarely doing less than 25 spm with a full stroke.

I've always had better aerobic capacity than strength. Doing weights is a real struggle for me and I improve only slowly and regress quickly (right now I'm benching about 100 lb, for example). But even when I'm out of shape, I can get my aerobic capacity back without much difficulty. But I do think it's going to be a while before I can pull 8427/30m again, and the years are starting to catch up to me...

[Cyclingman1]

I don't think that I've ever done a "low pull" - the fastest that one can possibly do. I fear getting hurt - back especially.

With a 4:57 1500m and a 6:47 2K, it seems like 2K could come down to 6:43 or less.

It is interesting that you think that 28-30 SPM is high. I usually row around 34-35 SPM with results very similar to your's.
I think weight is a factor in SPM. I'm about 25 lb lighter.

Trust me, if 48 seems a bit old, you've seen nothing yet. Strength really starts dropping.

[RBFC]

More muscle mass = more oxygen demand = less long-term aerobic capacity. This relationship holds in all the sports I've witnessed. The fighters with the big muscles are dangerous in the early rounds, then less so later on. In every racing endeavor, those who "go out too fast" fade before the finish on longer pieces. There is no free lunch.

Carl, you have some great performances and good power.

Cyclingman, you have some great performances and excellent endurance.


Now, I don't think that we could just gather up most strength/bodybuilder type guys and watch them row sub 1:30/500m. There is a component of aerobic training and lactic acid tolerance that forms the foundation for speed performances of that level. The time under examination is outside the creatine/ATP window (40-50 sec). I do believe, however, that it is easier to train a powerful athlete to develop better endurance (me, for instance) than it is to train an endurance athlete to develop better power. Muscle fiber type plays a huge role in potential and the conversion is easier in one direction than the other. Interesting discussion.

Lee

[Cyclingman1]

I do believe, however, that it is easier to train a powerful athlete to develop better endurance (me, for instance) than it is to train an endurance athlete to develop better power. Muscle fiber type plays a huge role in potential and the conversion is easier in one direction than the other.

I think I tend to agree with that statement. I'm certain that slow twitch persons will never be fast. It is a little more likely that the powerful can gain endurance, but I suspect there are limitations on the high end of that curve.

Predicting times based on the performance in a single distance does not square well with the physical makeup of people. I see the so-called "five second rule" be very wrong, regardless of which direction one is going on the distance chart.

[Bob S.]

Predicting times based on the performance in a single distance does not square well with the physical makeup of people. I see the so-called "five second rule" be very wrong, regardless of which direction one is going on the distance chart.

The five second rule, often referred to as "Paul's Law," as far as I can tell was not intended as a predictor, by Paul Smith who seems to have been the originator. It was a sort of measure of physical makeup. It was an indicator of strength/endurance balance. One serious flaw in it is that the time difference is not proportional to the power difference. At a 1:30 pace, a 5" time increase is 5.5% and is a power decrease of 17.6%. At a 2:00 pace, a 5" time increase is 4.2% and the power decrease is 13.0%. It also falls off at the really long distances, i.e. the HM and FM, since other factors start taking effect (butt pain, dehydration, electrolyte loss, skeleton problems).

Bob S.

[RBFC]

Good post, Bob.

Lee

[Atorrante]

Today a 4K in 14:59.9 Happy with that and thinking if someday will I can do the 8K/30' personal goal.

[rlk]

Today a 4K in 14:59.9 Happy with that and thinking if someday will I can do the 8K/30' personal goal.

Congratulations! Go for the 8K!

I remember the first time I did 8K. It was probably about 7 or 8 years ago. It had been a target for me for quite a while, and one day everything went just right, I got a good start, and the last 20 minutes I averaged about 1:51, and ended up at 8028. But then I fell off...until about 5 years ago, after I had horrendous back spasms, I started rowing harder again to strengthen my back. Summer of 2008, I managed 8K again, and then my numbers went up, and by late that year I broke 8200 (my PR is now 8427, so I wound up having a lot of headroom!). I like the 30 minute. It's long enough that you really have to stay aerobic except for the final kick, but short enough that your rear end doesn't get sore.

I don't know what your derating curve is (how many seconds of pace you lose for every doubling of time), but if it's about 3-4 seconds like mine is, when you can get to 4100-4150/15 (that would be in the range of 4K/14:30), you would be able to do 8K/30.

[Atorrante]

It has been a goal for me for the past 3 or 4 years. Two years ago I came as close as 7943 meters but without a good training aproach. Now I am varying my workouts, doing long steadys as well as speedy shorts. Now with 54 I think that if I can't do it before 55, then bye bye goal. But for now it is good motivation to keep erging.

[RBFC]

Today a 4K in 14:59.9 Happy with that and thinking if someday will I can do the 8K/30' personal goal.

Nice going! I bet you can do it!

Lee

[Atorrante]

Today a 4K in 14:59.9 Happy with that and thinking if someday will I can do the 8K/30' personal goal.

Nice going! I bet you can do it!

Lee

Thanks for the pushing words.

[RBFC]

Today a 4K in 14:59.9 Happy with that and thinking if someday will I can do the 8K/30' personal goal.

Nice going! I bet you can do it!

Lee

Thanks for the pushing words.

Us old guys have to stick together. There's not a lot of us that will endure this much pain to excel.

Lee

[Carl Watts]

Carl, you have much more balanced PB's, although you tend to the power side. I'm looking at that 6:56 (1:44) for 2K and wondering if that can't come down. I do 6:49 (1:42.2) for 2K and am right at 1:35 for 500m. I'm rowing far closer to my power capacity (500m best + 7 secs); in other words, I seem to have a high AT. You do 2K at a pace that is nearly 18 secs slower than your best 500m. But really interesting is that you slow down by about only 3 sec per 500m for 5K. Just observing - not a criticism.

Thats an old time and a bit of a special. Did a 3 x 2K interval set with like 5 minutes rest and the times were something like 7:18, 7:08 and 6:56. Really had no intention of going Sub 7 but I could see that it was going to be close so just kept going. The 5Km is the most current PB. The 2K should now be about 6:40 for it to line up with the rest of the results (except the 6K, thats waaayyyy old now)

[RBFC]

Carl, you have much more balanced PB's, although you tend to the power side. I'm looking at that 6:56 (1:44) for 2K and wondering if that can't come down. I do 6:49 (1:42.2) for 2K and am right at 1:35 for 500m. I'm rowing far closer to my power capacity (500m best + 7 secs); in other words, I seem to have a high AT. You do 2K at a pace that is nearly 18 secs slower than your best 500m. But really interesting is that you slow down by about only 3 sec per 500m for 5K. Just observing - not a criticism.

Thats an old time and a bit of a special. Did a 3 x 2K interval set with like 5 minutes rest and the times were something like 7:18, 7:08 and 6:56. Really had no intention of going Sub 7 but I could see that it was going to be close so just kept going. The 5Km is the most current PB. The 2K should now be about 6:40 for it to line up with the rest of the results (except the 6K, thats waaayyyy old now)

Nice time for 5K, Carl! Now you better either improve that 2K time and post it, or erase it. Certain folks will chide you for putting up a time that's not your best! Thanks very much for your huge amount of information you've posted on these forums. I've been learning a lot!

Lee

[Bob S.]

Certain folks will chide you for putting up a time that's not your best!

Who cares what certain folks say?

Bob S.