Realistic improvement in older athletes?

[Cyclingman1]

People like to get faster. But then there is fantasy and there is reality.
As a 60+ athlete is it realistic to get to a 6:40 2K from a 6:57.1 PB? I might add that the WR for 65+ is 6:41.4 for 2K.

There must be a lot of factors. In my case, I have not been trying to be a fast rower until just 5 weeks ago. But my fitness level, in general, is high, being a very good cyclist given to fairly intense riding.
Of course, cycling fitness is not rowing fitness. I would suspect that a great deal of improvement in any sport is due to increased fitness. I probably do not have a large fitness gap between where I am now and the ideal that will alone cut 17 seconds off of my time.

The one thing that I do know is that if I want to row 1:40/500m for 2K, I have to be able to stand the pace. Which means a lot training at pacing below 1:40.
But for the casual, 60+ old rower it is not exactly easy (understatement) to dial up 1:35/500m intervals. My plan is to embark on a course of short and longer intervals.
For short: Perhaps 30s pulls at 1:35 with 1 to 1.5 mins of rest between. Maybe 8 or so of those.
For longer: Perhaps 500m pulls at 1:37/1:38 with 2 to 3 mins rest between. Maybe 4 or 5 or those.
Also, perhaps 1000m pulls at 1:39 with 4 mins rest. 2 or those.
And longer efforts, 3 to 5K at maybe 1:43 to 1:47.
I do know that older athletes usually do not do well with massive amounts of training. Rest is very important.

But the question I'm asking is any of this realistic? I really wish I could speak with a really knowledgeable/experienced rowing coach or read some detailed articles on this very subject. Having been a competitive athlete in both running and cycling fooling one's self about possibilities is as common as rain.

[hjs]

You are right that your aerobic fitness must be very good and can't improve anymore and given you age will decline. For specific training for you have room.
Strenghtwise you can look at it from two sides.
Say you rate 30 for a two k, if you would do row 7.00 min, that would mean 300 watts or 10 watt per stroke, if you would rate 20, 200 watt or 2.00 pace would give the same stroke only more rest (50%) extra between strokes.

In practice you often see people coming from other sports, adjusting fast to erging but plateauing soon, it is just like you say, there fitness is already good, so no room for improvement, only specific conditioning and strenghtening of muscle you are not used will help you.
You idea's are fine, but I would do it in small steps pacewise.

Good luck

[bobkwan2007]

But the question I'm asking is any of this realistic?

The question I'd have to ask is are you currently pulling any of those paces, and if so, is there any more left in the tank? And given your current fitness condition, is there room for improvements? How much room? 10%? 5%? 2%?

If you were a relative beginner and were able to pull 7:00 2k, I'd say there's a good chance you could get to 6:40.

[Cyclingman1]

I do appreciate the realistic comments to my question.
You can tell that I am worried about plateauing. It is a little early to say that, but there is maybe some evidence for it.

I don't believe that I had ever done any rowing below 1:51 before this Jan. I did some 1000m pulls a couple of times in mid-Jan in the 1:52/53 pace range. On Jan 27, I decided to do a 2K test. I did 6:57.1 at 1:44.2 pace. Then a week later I did 3:18.6 (1:39.3) and 3:23.7 (1:41.8) for 1000m. A few days later I did 5:06 for 1500m. I'm thinking this rowing business is a piece of cake. WR here I come. The motivation for this is that my wife (a X-Fitter) insisted I do the Atlanta Erg Sprints on Feb 11. On race day, I was just a wee bit humbled. I did 6:57.9 and it pratically killed me to do so. I quickly realized that I have been living in the fantasy land that I mentioned. I was/am untrained. I really am wondering if I can cut 4% off my PB. I lost a second in 2 weeks time.

I addressed a little of what I did/can do above. My latest effort was series of 500m intervals: 1:38, 1:40, 1:41, & 1:41 with 2min rest between first 3 and 6 mins before last one - I was out of gas. Those numbers are not giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. That is why I'm going to throw in 30s intervals. I have to row faster speeds and carry that speed into greater distances and time.

I am actually doing this as practically an experiment. I know how to get fit in running and cycling. Can I translate that knowledge into rowing and do I have something left in the tank. I am getting older every day. I would like to see some improvemenet in the next two months, but realistically I'll know far more at the end of the year. I will be interrupting the experiment this summer for a season of cycling. I'll do some maintenance rowing.

[hjs]

Basic fitness rules apply for al sports, so what works for cycling will roughly also work for erging.

I don't know how tall/heavy you are, that plays a serious role. If you are below 80 kg, your times are impressive.
In general, rowing a 2k needs being aerobicly very fit, having enough strenght to pull the strokes and having done enough faster work to be used to the anearobic work. For training that means you have do mostly aerobic work and on top of that 2 times orso, 2k paced work. In a nutshell that is.

Ps look around on the Uk forum, that is a lot more active and if you look in the blog sections you can find a world of training people are doing, also from some other guys your age.

[Oldcolonial]

Interesting question. I am quite inexperienced as a rower but suspect the only way to answer your question is empirically. That is you need to try. Your 6:57 has an average output of 309 watts, the 6:40 you are after requires 350, roughly 13.3% more. This seems like it is achievable through a combination of sharpening, improved technique and improved fitness.

Also, I might get flamed for this next comment ( I am prepared ). You should not be intimidated by the current world record. The number of men aged 60 plus trying to row a fast 2K on a C2 erg is very small. As such, there is a much better chance that your natural abilities are comparable to those of the current world record holder than for age group records in other sports with much higher participation rates such as cycling, distance running or track and field events. In short, as a cyclist you have been swimming in a relatively large pond. As a C2 indoor rower focused on a 2K, you are in a much smaller pond so it will probably be easier to be one of the big fish.

[Cyclingman1]

There's no pt in being vague on my part: Age:65, Wt: 195 lb, or 88.5 kg, Ht: 6'4".

Regarding the small pond: I have to agree to some extent. I've noticed that some outstanding rowers seem to retire after they hit their early sixties. In particular: Paul Hendershott. When I did the ATL erg sprints on Feb 11, there were maybe 8 men at 60+. I won easily, but so what? I was after a good time. The current WR holder for age 65 is a veteran rower, in his college hall of fame for rowers. That is the other side of the equation - many still rowing have been good for a while. There is usually a ringer lurking in most age groups. There is a fellow TJ Oesterling who is on track to destroy all records in the 60's.

I am really curious about the wattage calculations. Is that straightforward? I want my time to be 4% faster. Is it being said that I must increase my wattage output by 13% to get there. If I am better trained and perhaps more efficient, does that impact the wattage that must be output. Or is it simply a pure matter of speed. Plus wouldn't my weight come into play? I would think that the goal would be to maxmize speed and minimize power input as much as possible. May the most efficient man win.

[jvincent]

I am really curious about the wattage calculations. Is that straightforward? I want my time to be 4% faster. Is it being said that I must increase my wattage output by 13% to get there. If I am better trained and perhaps more efficient, does that impact the wattage that must be output. Or is it simply a pure matter of speed. Plus wouldn't my weight come into play? I would think that the goal would be to maxmize speed and minimize power input as much as possible. May the most efficient man win.

Your first comment about needing to increase your power by 13% is correct. That is what the erg measures.

As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin that cat.

If you are in WR territory I think it is reasonably safe to assume that you and the other contenders are probably generally pretty efficient as a rule. As with most personal bests you will need to sync up your best efficiency day, with your best power output day, with your best stamina day, etc.

[Oldcolonial]

Average power is what the ERG measures. From the C2 web site, converting watts to pace is 2.8 / pace^3. Pace is in seconds per meter. So you can take any percent change in pace and cube it to obtain the change in wattage associated with it. For instance, to row 5% faster means produce 1.05^3 times as much power, or 15.8% more.

[hjs]

There's no pt in being vague on my part: Age:65, Wt: 195 lb, or 88.5 kg, Ht: 6'4".

Regarding the small pond: I have to agree to some extent. I've noticed that some outstanding rowers seem to retire after they hit their early sixties. In particular: Paul Hendershott. When I did the ATL erg sprints on Feb 11, there were maybe 8 men at 60+. I won easily, but so what? I was after a good time. The current WR holder for age 65 is a veteran rower, in his college hall of fame for rowers. That is the other side of the equation - many still rowing have been good for a while. There is usually a ringer lurking in most age groups. There is a fellow TJ Oesterling who is on track to destroy all records in the 60's.

I am really curious about the wattage calculations. Is that straightforward? I want my time to be 4% faster. Is it being said that I must increase my wattage output by 13% to get there. If I am better trained and perhaps more efficient, does that impact the wattage that must be output. Or is it simply a pure matter of speed. Plus wouldn't my weight come into play? I would think that the goal would be to maxmize speed and minimize power input as much as possible. May the most efficient man win.

It's a combo of both, more power en us that power the most efficiently. You seem to have a good build, tall and a healthy weight, looking good. It's not just above 60, it's above 35/40 people in general stop. But you are right the higher the age group, the less people compete, and in the woman cat. it is even worse.

[RBFC]

At age 55 and just getting started in "timed" rowing, I understand your concerns. In my opinion, you have a good chance of making your goal. After being a cyclist, I'd guess that your upper body/back strength is not yet where it could be. Greater strength in those areas will allow you to make pulls at a much higher wattage figure than you may currently be achieving. I think your reasoning for doing the 500m repeats is valid. You might even try doing some 250m pulls to work on power.

I came from an athletic background that focused on power and am in the steep portion of the learning curve about energy expenditure for rowing. Take into consideration your increased recovery time from severe exertions, so that you don't overtrain & wipe your CNS...

Good luck

Lee

[jamesg]

C1,
If and when you can maintain 220W at rating 20 for long periods (30' up) I think you have a good chance of reaching 6:40 if you then do quite a lot of shorter TR work. The rating would be around 32, which is not so high that you can't use your height and weight. You'd cruise for 1500m at say 1:41, then wind it up, possibly without loss of stroke length.

[Bob S.]

On reading this thread, I have spotted only a couple of references to technique and those were just in passing. For those who are new to rowing the initial sharp improvement usually comes from increasing fitness and learning to row with efficient technique. In this case, cyclingman1 is obviously already quite fit and his only gains there would be from a bit more upper body muscle build up. So technique improvement is where he has the most to gain - unless he has already had some coaching on his technique by someone familiar with good rowing technique.

Bob S.

[bobkwan2007]

Bob S, I was just about the make the same comment. Improvement in technique might make up a large portion of those improvements of which everyone speaks.

[hjs]

Bob S, I was just about the make the same comment. Improvement in technique might make up a large portion of those improvements of which everyone speaks.

I don't agree, it's not technique but much more a matter of specific conditioning, erging is a relative easy thing to do, just like running or cycling, sure it takes some technique, but it's not rocketscience.