Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Bob S.
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Bob S. » August 23rd, 2011, 11:43 am

ben990 wrote:
ranger wrote:The problem with old men who have lost their fitness is that this fitness can't be regained, no matter what they do.

ranger
What about old men who have lost their minds?
This Early Morning Debating and Bashing Society has loads of them.

Bob S.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 23rd, 2011, 12:54 pm

macroth wrote:
ranger wrote:
macroth wrote:Those videos were barely 10 strokes long
A 1K is only 120 strokes, the whole thing.

ranger
So that's 12 times something you can't do. Nice!

Much like a FM is only 12 times 3500m, but you can't pull 1:48/500m for 3500m so the FM at 1:48 is just a pipe dream. As in crack pipe dream.
Naw, both are doable, right now.

I row 1:48 @ 23 spm, steady state, at 75% HRR (155 bpm), right on target.

I suspect that my HR will max out (190 bpm) about 2/3 of the way through a 1K OTW.

Then I will hold it there until the end.

In the little bursts I did at race pace, my HR wasn't even to top-end UT2 (145 bpm).

Mike VB's HR maxes out at 163 bpm.

He can't work very hard; so, sure, he'd better be good technically.

OTErg, 75% HRR for Mike is 1:58, not 1:48.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by bellboy » August 23rd, 2011, 2:09 pm

ranger wrote:
bellboy wrote:i dont row. I erg for fitness.
Ah.

So you are incompetent.

Are you unfit, too?

What is your age, weight, and 2K?

ranger

Incompetent? Moi? How can one be incompetent at something one has never attempted? In case you have forgotten this is a training thread on the Concept2 website. I like the Erg. A wonderful piece of kit. It keeps me ticking over wondefully in my post rugby career. It keeps me fit and is perhaps the best £800 i ever spent. Hmmm? I wonder if i should take up sculling? It cant be that difficult. It has only taken you seven years to reach the standard witnessed during last years little "incident". I just a need a coach. I shall be horribly indiscreet and say i was going to ask you but i have decieded to go someone with a bit more credibility. His name is Nosher. He is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and weighs 50 pounds. He can also operate a video camera. Fantastic! I'l get positive,informative feedback and absolutely no Robert Frost to send me to sleep.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Byron Drachman » August 23rd, 2011, 2:33 pm

Ranger wrote:BTW, in Mike's video, he looks _much_ more strained when he lifts the rate to 26 spm. Oars start to splash; hands wobble on the leg drive; recoveries become uneven, etc.
Your stroke is so much better than Mike's. It is good of you to point out Mike's flaws.

I was trying to honor your request of supplying a video of my sculling this morning. I thought a friend was shooting a video but she was taking still photos. Here I am going into the catch. Feel free to provide some snide comments. Fair is fair:
B_Aug_23_2011_photo_by_Deb_r.jpg
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 23rd, 2011, 3:16 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:Your stroke is so much better than Mike's. It is good of you to point out Mike's flaws.
No, you misunderstood my comment.

My comment was that, while Mike made certain judgments about strain and effort based on videos we both provided, Mike didn't provide any video of 1:52 @ 30 spm, which is quite a different affair than 2:14 @ 20 spm, and that it is clear that, as Mike lifts the rate and rows harder, his technique (and physical capacities) show the strain, even at 2:05 @ 26 spm, not to mention 1:52 @ 30 spm.

Mike can't do 2K, 1:52 @ 30 spm, much less 5K, so 1:52 @ 30 spm must be an _enormous_ strain for him.

In fact, I don't think we have evidence from this year, at least, that Mike can do 1:52 @ 30 spm for even 1K.

120 strokes.

Why is that, if, unlike me, he is rowing so well and moving the boat without significant effort?

At 15 seconds over erg times, 1:52 @ 30 spm OTW is the equivalent of 1:37 @ 30 spm OTErg, which Mike also can't do.

In a 1K trial, your HR reaches max about 2/3 of the way through.

How can Mike be rowing so easily, 1:52 @ 30 spm, without strain and effort, if his HR goes to max after fewer than 100 strokes?

You are even more insincere, not providing a video of the stroke cycle and the movement of your boat at all, but just a still. A still goes nowhere. The pace and rate are both zero.

Provide some video of your boat going 1:52 @ 30 spm. Then we can check out your catches in a fair comparison.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by snowleopard » August 23rd, 2011, 3:40 pm

ranger wrote:You are even more insincere
Oh yeah, you're the man to call someone out for being insincere. Sheesh!

Have you discussed psychosis with your therapist yet?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » August 23rd, 2011, 4:40 pm

ranger wrote:
macroth wrote:
ranger wrote:
A 1K is only 120 strokes, the whole thing.

ranger
So that's 12 times something you can't do. Nice!

Much like a FM is only 12 times 3500m, but you can't pull 1:48/500m for 3500m so the FM at 1:48 is just a pipe dream. As in crack pipe dream.
Naw, both are doable, right now.
An outright lie. But please, prove me wrong.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 23rd, 2011, 5:48 pm

In rowing, you need to achieve a certain pace over a certain distance by using a certain technique and exerting a certain amount of effort relative to your physical capacities.

In rowing, the outcome of a race, etc., depends on all of the things mentioned above, in about equal proportion.

(1) pace
(2) distance
(3) technique
(4) effort
(5) physical capacity

No one thing dominates.

Especially in the veteran ranks, the person with the best technique does not necessarily win.

Some old men have lost their youthful physical capacity almost entirely.

So they are no longer capable of a significant effort.

C'est dommage.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Yet another gem from Ranger

Post by Byron Drachman » August 23rd, 2011, 7:38 pm

Ranger wrote:In rowing, you need to achieve a certain pace over a certain distance by using a certain technique and exerting a certain amount of effort relative to your physical capacities.
That is so deep. That is why I keep coming back to this thread--to learn stuff like that. I had no idea you need a achieve a certain pace over a certain distance. I will work on that starting tomorrow. And I will be sure to exert a certain amount of effort relative to my physical capacities.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 24th, 2011, 1:53 am

I suppose this is the mystery for me:

If Mike VB is rowing so easily, with no strain or effort, when he holds his technique together, and therefore is rowing well, why can he only row for fifty strokes or so, a couple of minutes, at 30 spm, say, 1:52 @ 30 spm (8.3 SPI), before his HR goes to max and he has to stop, _very_ soon, because he is going blue in the face from oxygen debt?

30 spm is just not that high a rate.

Many people rate 30 spm for 5K, for example, at the Head of the Charles, which takes 20min to do and 500 strokes.

At 15 seconds per 500m over erg times, 1:52 @ 30 spm OTW is the equivalent of 1:37 @ 30 spm OTErg, and Mike can't do that for even 500m, either, not even 48 strokes, much less 1K, 96 strokes, before exactly the same thing happens.

He goes blue in the face from the strain and effort of the task and has to quit.

Something doesn't make sense here.

On the erg, many elite young rowers can row well and rate 30 spm for 60min, 1800 strokes, what amounts to a whole training session, with their HR, steady state, at top-end UT1, not even over their anaerobic threshold. They row for an hour without ever going blue in the face and having to stop because of the strain and effort.

That's something like what I am going to do when I race 60min OTErg.

Recently, rowing pretty well, Matthias rated 27 spm for a FM OTErg, 2.5 hours of rowing. In a FM, your HR can only be about 75% HRR. You have to be very comfortable indeed at your FM rate and pace, or given the length of the row, you won't get to the end.

It certainly is _not_ good rowing if your boat doesn't go anywhere when you take a stroke.

How you move the boat relative to your physical capacity and level of effort is the only possible criterion of what is good rowing and what is not.

Mike seems to be invoking some other standard in order to judge who is rowing well and who not, something like "looking good for the camera," or whatnot.

Sure, it is always best not to interfere with the movement of the boat as it is going along, but in the end, it doesn't matter much how you are interfering with the movement of a boat if it isn't going anywhere in the first place.

I suppose you can put it this way:

MIke seems to think that rowing is more about smoothness, "fine muscle coordination," and the like, rather than stremgth, power, endurance, quickness, aerobic capacity, etc.

Hmm.

Not sure about that one at all.

Have you seen elite young rowers?

They are pretty strong, powerful guys, who train a whole hell of lot, pulling their guts out for three or four hours a day, day after day.

They look like this guy:

Image

Why?

Because rowing is one of the most physically demanding sports imaginable, drawing on the llimits of both your full-body skeletal-muscular capacities and your aerobic and anaerobic physiological capacities.

Sure, there are certain skills that you need to develop in order to be fast in rowing, but I am not sure that the primary ones are "fine."

Rowing and crocheting are pretty different pastimes, pursued by pretty different sorts of people with pretty different capacities.

Concept2 and other makers of rowing machines have now sold zillions of useful devices that can keep you tuned up over the winter for the spring rowing season, but these machines are pretty different from a machine, for instance, that keeps you practicing feathering your oars all winter, so that you don't lose the fine muscle coordination you need to row well.

Interestingly, and perhaps predictably, Byron altered his erg so that he could indeed feather his stroke.

Sure.

If your boat isn't going anywhere when you take a stroke, it is a little embarrassing if you don't have something else to do that you can get good at while you row.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on August 24th, 2011, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by snowleopard » August 24th, 2011, 2:33 am

ranger wrote:At 15 seconds per 500m over erg times, 1:52 @ 30 spm OTW is the equivalent of 1:37 @ 30 spm OTErg, and ranger can't do that for even 500m, either, not even 48 strokes, much less 1K, 96 strokes, before exactly the same thing happens.

He goes blue in the face from the strain and effort of the task and has to quit.

Something doesn't make sense here.
ranger,

A perfect account of your most recent 2K -- 7:02.3.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 24th, 2011, 2:36 am

snowleopard wrote:
ranger wrote:At 15 seconds per 500m over erg times, 1:52 @ 30 spm OTW is the equivalent of 1:37 @ 30 spm OTErg, and ranger can't do that for even 500m, either, not even 48 strokes, much less 1K, 96 strokes, before exactly the same thing happens.

He goes blue in the face from the strain and effort of the task and has to quit.

Something doesn't make sense here.
ranger,

A perfect account of your most recent 2K -- 7:02.3.
Sure.

I didn't get my weight right, so I didn't have any energy to row.

Yes.

That's _exactly_ what I mean.

If you don't have any physical energy, you can't row well, even if you are spectacular at feathering your oars.

No way.

Very soon (are we there right now?) that 7:02 will be the best that Mike VB can do for 2K OTErg, fully prepared, fully fueled and rested, pulling his guts out until he is blue in the face.

Most veteran rowers have exactly the same problem.

Leadville is _already_ there, and he has eons to go before he is 60 years old.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » August 24th, 2011, 4:09 am

ranger wrote:I suppose this is the mystery for me:
The mystery for me is why you persist in comparing things other people are actually doing with things you think you're going to be able to do at some point in the future.

To help dispel this mystery, why don't you do one of the things you said were doable right now? Or, as someone DM'd me, did you mean that they're doable right now *by someone*, just not you?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 24th, 2011, 4:16 am

This discussion of the hows, whys, and wherefores of (1) powering a boat vs. (2) not stopping it is an interesting and relevant one.

Sure.

The erg doesn't teach you anything about how to avoid stopping a boat.

The erg is all about how to power a boat.

It doesn't teach you to crochet.

The best way to power an erg is also the best way to power a boat.

And the best way to power a boat is the best way to power an erg.

So, the erg is very useful for OTW rowers who know how to use it, as most do.

Then, sure, if you row OTW, you have to learn how to avoid stopping the boat, too

You need to learn to crochet.

:D :D

What is puzzling about Mike VB is that he thinks he can row well, but, really, he can only crochet.

He can't row well at all, if you take both powering the boat and not stopping it into consideration.

If he could power a boat in addition to not stopping it, he would be great OTErg, like an elite young lightweight.

For a lightweight, rowing well OTErg, that is, powering a boat well, is 13 SPI.

If you are a lighweight, generating this much power on each stroke should be easy and automatic, inevitable, especially, of course, at low rates.

For instance, if you row well OTErg, that is, if you power a boat well, you should be able to just glide along, 1:48 @ 21 spm, for hours and hours, as I can now, with a UT2 HR, 70% HRR, steady state.

Pulling 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI) OTErg, you shouldn't turn blue in the face with strain and effort after 50 strokes, as Mike VB does, and so decide to abandon rowing well entirely and just pull easily, generating very little power, that is, not moving the boat much at all.

For instance, when Mike rows at UT2 OTErg, he seems to prefer 2:03 @ 21 spm rather than 1:48 @ 21 spm.

That's fifteen seconds per 500m slower than rowing well.

:shock: :o

Yikes.

That's wretched.

At this point, sure, it would help your self esteem, if you think as much of yourself as Mike does, if you could crochet while you were rowing so poorly, just so that you could keep practicing those "fine motor skills" needed to not stop the boat.

Mike should talk to Byron.

Byron has altered his erg so that he can play with the handle while he is rowing poorly.

Maybe Mike would like to do the same to his erg.

Hey.

To each his own.

We all have to stay amused or life is a bore.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on August 24th, 2011, 4:37 am, edited 5 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » August 24th, 2011, 4:18 am

PaulH wrote:
ranger wrote:I suppose this is the mystery for me:
The mystery for me is why you persist in comparing things other people are actually doing with things you think you're going to be able to do at some point in the future.
The future?

Yikes, I've been doing it for eight years now.

This morning so far, 15K OTErg, 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI).

This rowing well at 21 spm is now getting _very_ easy.

UT2 HR

Practiced keeping my heels in contact with the footplate at all times, especially my left heel, which tends to wander.

OTW as soon as the sun comes up.

Interestingly, in his Olympic years, Xeno liked to do most of his meters in his 1x at 21 spm.

If OTW times are 15 seconds per 500m over erg times at the same rate, 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI) OTErg is the equivalent of 2:03 @ 21 spm OTW.

So I know what to shoot for in my learning to crochet.

Mike VB doesn't do anything like 2:03 @ 21 spm OTW.

He prefers 2:03 @ 28 spm, just as he prefers 1:48 @ 28 spm on the erg, and even so, pulling that, is done after 5K, given the poor rowing at such a high rate, given the pace.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on August 24th, 2011, 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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