Ranger's training thread

[mikvan52]

Elbows in ... as "in" towards your ribcage ?... That's dead wrong RIch... I cannot fathom what you mean by "somewhat more"

Surely you can find a video of this feature (!)

All of the excellent rowing by the women in the Athens Olympics.

At the tap down and through the recovery, the elbows come in toward the body, quickly, and that position is maintained, after being flared somewhat more at the finish.

That's what lifts your oars off the water cleanly and keeps them there.

Rich: You are clearly not sober... Try to explain again in the morning..

None of what you say here is what happens...
The elbows do not come in AT ALL at the "tap down".

Rutchow-Stomporowski vs Karsten at Athens W1x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yHQ9hoJ_E


40 seconds into the video
Rutchowjust after the release... observe elbows

[ranger]

The narrator warns you not to make the leg drive too fast.

BTW, the leg drives of the women in the Athens video are _very_ fast.

Legs are pretty much down when the handle passes over the knees.

That isn't the finish (etc.)!

That's exactly how I do it now, both OTW and OTErg.

Good stuff.

Many ergers just pull steadily with all of their levers, from catch to finish, rocking from toes (at the catch) to heels at the finish, starting and finishing all of the levers together.

No sequencing, no timing, no footwork, no acceleration of the handle.

That's a disaster.

You can't generate any force hauling anchor like that, especially at low drag.

I suspect that this is how _you_ row, Byron, given that you can't generate any power with your stroke.

Post a video of some erging.

Let's see.

Do you push your heels all the way through, quickly, until your legs are pretty much down when the handle passes your knees?

I doubt it.

If you did, you'd pull 13 SPI.

In order to push your legs through with your heels in this way, you have to do it in about .2 seconds.

That's pretty darn fast, especially if you have long legs, as many of the best rowers do.

ranger

[mikvan52]

I find it hilarious for anyone to suggest demo-ing a good OTW stroke on the erg when the water is available

[Rocket Roy]

What an amazing row by the German woman. Through 1k in 3.41, hell Ranger would have trouble doing that OTE!

Why is Ranger obsessing about elbows?????

[ranger]

Rutchowjust after the release... observe elbows

Yes, her elbows aren't flared much at all at this point, and as her elbows move into the recovery, the flaring, such as it is, is reduced further.

If you keep your elbows flared out at the release and through the recovery, it's a disaster.

It's hard to lift the oars off the water and keep them there.

You leverage the oars down by tucking the elbows in.

This proper tucking in of the elbows on the recovery also helps the rock over at the hips back into prep position.

If you keep your elbows flared out, the rock over at the hips is harder to do correctly, too.

Paying attention to your elbows at the finish and through the recovery, then, can solve multiple problems, simultaneously.

I had _all_ of these problems!

No longer.

ranger

[ranger]

Rutchowjust after the release... observe elbows

Yes, her elbows are not flared much at all at this point, and as the elbows move into the recovery, the flaring, such as it is, is reduced further.

ranger

[mikvan52]

What an amazing row by the German woman. Through 1k in 3.41, hell Ranger would have trouble doing that OTE!

Why is Ranger obsessing about elbows?????

More importantly, why is Cureton unable to see what is right before his eyes ?

Roy: Do you see elbows coming in " at the tap down " as ranger claims?

In my background, I have witnessed the "elbows in" approach... in novices...
It's something people work through and eliminate as they improve their form.

Rich:
Let go.
You are wrong.

re-watch the video..
There are many close-ups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yHQ9hoJ_E

This leads me to ask:
Rich have you ever see elite scullers racing at a venue (not video)...?

[ranger]

Mike--

I think you can't see it because you can't imagine that it can be done otherwise, and even so, you do it so automatically that it is unconscious and therefore impossible for you not to do.

Not so for those who are just learning to row, as I am.

ranger

[ranger]

In my background, I have witnessed the "elbows in" approach... in novices...
It's something people work through and eliminate as they improve their form.

Sure, if you are clutching your elbows into your sides, or some such thing, even at the finish.

I'm not talking about extreme cases of this sort.

I am talking about extreme cases of exactly the other sort, where the elbows are flared too wide, even at the tap-down and through the recovery.

If you do this, you can't leverage your oars off the water and keep them there, and if you can't do that, you can't rock over at the hips to prep position before breaking your legs and going down the slide.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

I think you can't see it because you can't imagine that it can be done otherwise, and even so, you do it so automatically that it is unconscious and therefore impossible for you not to do.

No so for those who are just learning to row, as I am.

ranger

Let's stay on topic:
"What do elite scullers do with their elbows at the end of the drive and through the release?"
This is not about me or you.

We are old men, not elites...

I watch elites and consider how I might approach their form in my diminished capacity. I also attempt to teach others how to scull properly.

[Byron Drachman]

Large boats are faster. The faster the boat, the shorter the drive time. The shorter the drive time, the higher the ratio.

Good grief!

[ranger]

I find it hilarious for anyone to suggest demo-ing a good OTW stroke on the erg when the water is available

Sure.

But many ergers don't row OTW--at all, ever.

So they don't know how to row.

They can't generate any power with their stroke.

They treat the handle like a weight--and lift it.

This would get you nowhere in a boat, of course.

And it doesn't get you much OTErg, either.

Rowing isn't like weight-lifting.

The rowing stroke is like a whip-lash.

It is much more like throwing a discus or shot put, or hitting a golf ball or baseball.

The power comes from the big levers in the leg and flows, in a sequenced way, up through the smaller levers, the core, back, and arms, building energy and speed until contact/release.

ranger

[Byron Drachman]

I would love to see a video your latest OTW stroke so I can attempt to emulate it. Maybe I could follow your discussion better with a demonstration. I am slower than molasses OTW and you are now going faster than anyone else in your age group so your video would be a big help to me. I already have some video of R.A., Mike, Leadville, etc. available but yours will be much better, I am sure.

July 18, 2011: I'll post some videos of my current technique, both OTW and OTErg, over the next week or so.

[ranger]

I would love to see a video your latest OTW stroke so I can attempt to emulate it. I am slower than molasses OTW and you are now going faster than anyone else in your age group so your video would be a big help to me. I already have some video of R.A., Mike, Leadville, etc. available but yours will be much better, I am sure

I am happy to get you some video of my OTW rowing.

I'll need to get some calm water, though.

None of that was anywhere to be had today.

Waves are still crashing in off the big lake from the northwest.

No reason to exaggerate.

I am no better than anyone else who is moving a boat well.

But it appears that I am now just as good.

The difference in my case, if there is any difference at all, will be my fitness, given my age.

I think I can rate up.

Mike VB clearly can't.

Young scullers do 1K at 38 spm, at least.

Mike tops out at something like 30 spm.

This limitation doesn't have anything to do with technique.

Mike is pulling 8 SPI.

It has to do with his aerobic capacity.

Mike's maxHR is 163 bpm.

If my maxHR were 163 bpm, I could only rate 30 spm in a 1K, too.

But my maxHR is 190 bpm.

How high you can lift the rate, once you row well, that is, once you can really move the boat, depends on your fitness, your aerobic capacity.

It doesn't have anything to do with technique.

Mike rows just as well as younger scullers.

He just doesn't have their engine.

The difference between Mike's engine and the engines of younger scullers (and ergers) is about 13 seconds per 500m.

That's a lot.

For many younger scullers/ergers, physiologically, 163 bpm is middlin' UT1, not max (AN).

In terms of fitness, Mike misses them by two and a half training bands.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Large boats are faster. The faster the boat, the shorter the drive time. The shorter the drive time, the higher the ratio.

Good grief!


I would love to see a video your latest OTW stroke so I can attempt to emulate it. I am slower than molasses OTW and you are now going faster than anyone else in your age group so your video would be a big help to me. I already have some video of R.A., Mike, Leadville, etc. available but yours will be much better, I am sure.

July 18, 2011: I'll post some videos of my current technique, both OTW and OTErg, over the next week or so.

Byron: Please!
Rich has answered this so adequately... He's a family man. They don't go row with him. He never imposes on anyone.
I bet if he approached the fisherman with his camera and asked them to pull out of the way for 30 seconds and shoot some footage they would say... ( ranger: you tell us)
Or: (as for his timing device) It takes decades to learn how to operate the recall on these things, you know...

Got it?

Moving on:
Tomorrow's excuse.
Tom Sawyer will get ranger to pay to whitewash Tom's fence (aka: no time for sculling)