Ranger's training thread

[gregsmith01748]

Misquoting Rowing Faster seems to be a new hobby for Ranger. With regard to the comments on squats and deadlifts, the intent expressed in the text is that if you cannot hit the minimums defined by weight and age, then a specific program of strength training might be beneficial. If you meet or exceeds these numbers, then it is likely that fitness and technique are your best areas of focus. Basically, Ranger turned this logic upside down in his post.

I wanted to post a quick correction so that people who have not read the book will understand that it is a pretty reasonable strategy and approach, and not be left with the distorted perspective offered by Ranger.

[aharmer]

So he misquoted an article...are you surprised:) Why would we expect him to be able to comprehend anything over a 2nd grade reading level?

I'm wondering why he attempted to justify his lack of squatting and deadlifting with more bullshit, but again refused to respond to the portion of my post asking him to show even 5k of his marathon pace that is coming up in less than a month.

I can rev it up to 1:35 any time I want for several hundred meters...what will the erging world think when I absolutely destroy the open marathon world record? Ranger, guess what? When you pull at 1:46 for 500-1000 meters and you're already feeling the effects of lactic acid buildup in your muscles, you don't slow down because you're evaluating your technique. You slow down because you're letting your body clear the acid so you can up the intensity again for a couple minutes. Sorry to inform you that you're not one in a billion, and your strength and age limit you.

Of course you reserve the right to prove me wrong by showing us even a paltry 5k at 1:46.

[ranger]

Misquoting Rowing Faster seems to be a new hobby for Ranger. With regard to the comments on squats and deadlifts, the intent expressed in the text is that if you cannot hit the minimums defined by weight and age, then a specific program of strength training might be beneficial. If you meet or exceeds these numbers, then it is likely that fitness and technique are your best areas of focus. Basically, Ranger turned this logic upside down in his post.

I wanted to post a quick correction so that people who have not read the book will understand that it is a pretty reasonable strategy and approach, and not be left with the distorted perspective offered by Ranger.

It is not at all "distorted" to think that 60-year-olds can have exactly the same full body strength as 20-year-olds.

There is no necessary decline in muscle mass, and therefore full-body strength, with age, as there is with aerobic capacity.

Loss of muscle mass and strength with age is just a product of neglect, poor/slight training, a sedentary life style, etc.

This means that, all other things equal, in rowing, the minimum strength requirements for 60-year-olds should be the same as the minimum strength requirements for 20-year-olds.

ranger

[ranger]

At the Head of the Charles last year, in the Veterans race, some 20 boats rowed 23:00 or slower for the three miles, so about 2:20 pace.

Yikes.

I think I can now row three miles OTW at sub-2:00 pace.

At 15 seconds over erg times, that's only sub-1:45 pace OTErg.

ranger

[Citroen]

I think I can now row three miles OTW at sub-2:00 pace.

No you can't and you can't steer the boat for ten feet.

[snowleopard]

It is not at all "distorted" to think that [some] 60-year-olds can have exactly the same full body strength as [some] 20-year-olds.

But that isn't what you said:

According to _Rowing Faster_, 60s lwts should only be able to dead lift and squat 150 lbs.

The single rep max values given in Rowing Faster are minima. If you meet them, supplementary strength training is considered unnecessary.

[Rocket Roy]

I'm confused.
===================
by ranger » August 7th, 2011, 3:32 am

This morning so far, 15K OTErg, just before dawn.

Sun is coming up.

Time to get out OTW.
====================
It say's 03.32 am................. Is the photo from a library?

[ranger]

When you pull at 1:46 for 500-1000 meters and you're already feeling the effects of lactic acid buildup in your muscles, you don't slow down because you're evaluating your technique. You slow down because you're letting your body clear the acid so you can up the intensity again for a couple minutes. Of course you reserve the right to prove me wrong by showing us even a paltry 5k at 1:46.

I understand that you like to talk about yourself, but when you do, there is no reason to attribute what you are talking about to me.

My first goal is a FM, 1:46 @ 24 spm (12 SPI).

No reason to do 5K as some sort of race at this point.

A FM @ 1:46 predicts a 5K @ 1:37, 16:10.

13 SPI @ 30 spm?

I'll give these things a go a bit later down the line, though.

After the FM, I'll do a HM, 60min, 10K, 30min, and 6K, slowly forcing the rate my HR up to top-end UT1 and then AT, before I do 5K.

HM 25 spm middlin' UT1
60min 26 spm top-end UT1
10K 27 spm some AT
30min 28 apm more AT
6K 29 spm AT

By the end of this series, I should be seeing HRs of 185 bpm at the ends of these races.

In 2K race preparation, the purpose or the FM @ 24 spm is to demonstrate great effectiveness, efficiency, relaxation, consistency, endurance, etc., rowing, steady state, with a low UT1 HR (75% HRR).

ranger

[ranger]

The single rep max values given in Rowing Faster are minima. If you meet them, supplementary strength training is considered unnecessary.

I repeat: If there is no necessary decline of strength with age, these minima for 60-year-olds should not be any different from the minima for 20-year-olds.

Saying that there is a necessary decline of strength with age is like saying there is a necessary decline of speech and thought with age.

It just ain't so.

If you don't have the strength to row well, you can't do it.

You cheat your technique in order to protect yourself from the skeletal-muscular strain.

The result is a disaster, an unnecessary 30% fall off in stroking power (e.g., among 60s lwts, from 13 SPI to 9 SPI) due to technical ineffectiveness and inefficiency.

ranger

[snowleopard]

The single rep max values given in Rowing Faster are minima. If you meet them, supplementary strength training is considered unnecessary.

It just ain't so.

You teach poetics. Ed McNeely is a strength/conditioning training expert.

Yeah, Ed must be wrong on this.

[lancs]

My first goal is a FM, 1:46 @ 24 spm (12 SPI).

No reason to do 5K as some sort of race at this point.

A FM @ 1:46 predicts a 5K @ 1:37, 16:10.

I know your maths isn't great but even you must see that your absolute inability to pull a 5k @ 1:46 pace precludes you from 'reasonably' having 1:46 as a FM pace?

When are you planning your first attempt at completing a FM? something like 1:58 pace might just be manageable for you I think, optimistically thinking...

[Rocket Roy]

Where is the Gasman anyway?

[NavigationHazard]

Muppet. Of course it's possible to reverse temporarily age-associated decline in absolute strength. The simplest way is to add muscle mass as you get into middle age. When I got married at the age of 26 I weighed 177 lbs and had a 13.5" neck and had biceps the circumference of laundry markers. Present-day me has a 17.5" neck and arms thicker than my mini-me legs. Guess which version has a stronger upper body. It's also trivially possible to add absolute strength by starting out as a sedentary blob and taking up an exercise regimen. However there are limits to what can be done. Maximum attainable strength (based on your genetic potential) peaks in your late 20s-early 30s. Thereafter you can never make yourself as strong as you could have been had you reached that maximum in your prime. This is why you don't see 50-year-olds in the Olympic powerlifting competition.

In your case, you might actually be as strong in absolute terms at 60 as you were at, say, 30. Big boop de do. That doesn't make you immune from the general (and inevitable) trend of age-related decline. In fact, your ridiculous obsession with trying to row as a lightweight makes it all but impossible for you to gain absolute strength by adding muscle mass. The only thing you can do is to train your muscle fibers to contract harder, and there's only so hard they're ever going to go.

Rather more broadly, absolute strength in rowing means a lot less than strength-endurance. The last I looked, every OTW and every OTE competition that ever was or ever will be involves more than one stroke.

[Carl Watts]

What is so funny is the more he goes on about how fast he is the more people think he is faster than he is.

There is no way he can even row a FM at 1:58 pace, he is well into the 2:00+ and more like 2:07. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't even get to the finish line, way to much rowing with breaks. If he started at 1:48 pace the wheels would quickly fall off and he wouldn't make it to the finish, even once the pace collapsed to 2:30 pace with about, Oh only 40Km still left to go.

Gotta love this thread, always pop in now and again for a laugh and no need to check the rankings anymore for Rangers results, which is a bit of a time saver.

Perhaps as a bit of an extra incentive we should open the bets on how much longer this BS is going to continue ?

[ranger]

In your case, you might actually be as strong in absolute terms at 60 as you were at, say, 30.

No, I am just as strong as I _ever_ was--at 20, etc., not just 30.

And for my weight, that has always been pretty darn strong.

I have had no decline in strength whatsoever.

ranger