Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

So since you are doing 10k OTE + 10k OTW per day, interval sessions at ~2:00 average pace (OTE), yes, there are several other 60s lightweights doing that.

Nope.

Not at 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI) and a UT1 HR.

For example, that would be 10 x 1K (:30 rest), 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI) at UT1.

No other 60s lwt can even row 1K, 1:44 @ 26 spm (26 spm), flat out, at AN.

10 x 1K (:30 rest), 1:44 @ 26 spm (26 spm) at UT1, would be spectacular training for any 60s lwt.

That would be ten 1Ks with :30 rest at American 2K record pace pulled at 12 SPI, at only 26 spm and a UT1 HR.

If someone can do that, when they are fully prepared, they can row sub-6:30 for 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

A sub 18min 5K is my goal for this season and trust me it's going to feel great if I can do it.

Sure.

Good luck with it.

My 5K pb is 1:43/17:10, done almost ten years ago, but at max drag (200+ df.), rowing badly (10 SPI).

I am _much_ better than that now.

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (120 df.).

It helps to know how to row.

It helps even more to row well.

Over the last ten years, my aerobic capacity has declined a bit, I suppose, but not much, I think.

My maxHR is still 190 bpm.

My resting HR is 40 bpm.

Ten years ago, rowing badly at max drag, I pulled 1:52 @ 26 spm (9.5 SPI).

Now, rowing well at low drag, I pull 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI).

The level of effort being pretty much the same--middlin' UT1 (155 bpm), steady state.

If I can rate 26 spm for a FM, as I did back in 2002-2003, because of my better technique, my improved effectiveness and efficiency, I will now pull a FM 10 seconds per 500m faster than I did ten years ago.

In a FM trial, I'll beat my former self by over 13 _minutes_, despite aging 10 years.

Now _that's_ good training!

1:44 for a FM would break the 60s lwt FM WR by _16_ seconds per 500m.

The 60s lwt FM WR is 2:00 pace (2:48).

ranger

[ranger]

1K @ 1:44 is 3:28.

UT1 is AN + 15

For instance, if you do 60min @ 1:52 and UT1, you might do 1K @ 1:37 and AN.

RANKING RESULTS 2011

Indoor Rower | 1000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 60-69 | 2011 Season

Place [?] Name Age City State Country Time Source Type
1 Henry Baker 63 Santa Barbara CA USA 3:19.2 RowPro I
2 Hugh Pite 66 Sidney BC CAN 3:24.4 C2Log I
3 gregory brock 62 santa cruz ca USA 3:25.0 IND_V I
3 Rob Drury 64 Maidstone Kent GBR 3:25.0 C2Log I
5 Michael Brownjohn 62 Upminster Essex GBR 3:25.9 IND I
6 Hugh Conway 61 St. Pats TOW Club IRL 3:26.4 IND_V I
7 Bob Willis 60 Longmeadow Ma USA 3:26.5 IND I
8 Gerald Lawson 63 Winona MN USA 3:27.0 IND_V I
9 Terry Dargan 66 Sydney NSW AUS 3:28.7 RACE I
10 Timothy Foley 61 Coopersburg PA USA 3:29.0 IND I

The best that any other 60s lwt could do for the 10 x 1K (:30 rest) session, then, would be about 1:55 @ 26 spm (10 MPS).

If you stretch those 1Ks to 1500m and lengthen the rests to 1 minute, 10 x 1500m (1:00 rest) @ 1:44 was one variety of UT1 workout that Mike Caviston did ten years ago on a regular basis when he pushed the 40s lwt WR down to 6:18.

With the breaks/rests, the workout averages out to 2:04 pace for 15K.

For another variety of UT1 workout, Mike worked up to 30K @ 1:48 @ 23-25 spm, and said he could have pushed that to 42K, if he had wanted to.

That's what I am training for now, too, a FM, 1:48 @ 23-25 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike C.'s UT1 session of 1500s is something like 10 x 5min on, 1min off.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike VB, one of the best 55s lwts, recently did 10 x 2K (1:00 rest) at UT1 and 1:58 pace.

With the breaks, that works out to 2:13 pace for the 20K as a whole.

In his opinion, the session was too hard to do as a kind of staple, day-to-day effort, though.

He felt tired the next day.

He would prefer to row the 20K continuously at 2:03.

Mike can't row 2K, 1:44 @ 26 spm--at all.

ranger

[aharmer]

So put the whole conversation to rest. Set up the PM for 10x1k, 30"r and do the workout at 1:44/26. Show the pic. Done. You're doing this every single day, there's no reason you couldn't have a pic of this workout posted by the end of the day. Cue the "you don't deserve a screenshot" bullshit

[ranger]

Set up the PM for 10x1k, 30"r and do the workout at 1:44/26.

Sure.

You mean, so that I could train like Mike C.?

I don't really see the point.

My way of training is just as good, quite a bit more productive (in terms of work of technique), and quite a bit less worrisome, which frees up my mental energies for more productive concerns.

But sure.

I could train like Mike C. if I wanted to.

The only advantage of training like Mike C. is that the results are reportable to a coach, someone who is supervising but not doing the rowing.

But since I am my own coach, there is no point.

The essence of this rowing, both as Mike C did it and as I do it, is just a lot of rowing, 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI) at UT1.

Doesn't matter how you do it.

Just do it.

As I mentioned, I don't know yet, but I think I might train myself to row a FM, 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI).

ranger

[ranger]

Other 60s lwts never do any rowing at all, 1:44 @ 26 spm (12 SPI), or any other pace and rate combination at 12 SPI, including their low rate rowing, e.g., 2:00 @ 16.5 spm.

The work is too hard.

They don't row well enough to tolerate it.

ranger

[JimR]

My 5K pb is 1:43/17:10, done almost ten years ago, but at max drag (200+ df.), rowing badly (10 SPI).

I am _much_ better than that now.

You repeat this (or something like this) so often it is like background noise. Yet the simple fact is that you can't actually beat your pbs from the past today ... in fact you don't even try.

The assumption that (a) you could do a piece 10 years ago and (b) you can do one stroke better today does not mean you can do enough good strokes to complete a piece (or any distance).

Looking specifically at the FM (the first, most important, foundational piece in your training plan) ... you have been saying that 1:48 is going to happen any day now ... you have been saying this for 10 years. It hasn't happened ... you have no idea how close you are to this ... you don't even try.

Basically ... you row for fitness, not performance ... which is part of your problem ... the result of which is a 7:02 2K seasons best for 2010. Remember that 2010 was the year all your training investment was going to pay off?!

JimR

[ranger]

The goal of UT1/Level 3 training is to develop a top-notch level of efficiency (drag, ratio, recoveries, preparation, slide control, relaxation, rhythmicity, etc.) given a top-notch level of effectiveness (timing, sequencing, length, quickness, strength, angles of leverage, etc.).

It is best to work on effectiveness at low rates (16-22 spm).

The goal of UT1/Level 3 work is to learn to row effectively at middlin' rates (25-27 spm) and middlin' UT1 HRs (for me, 155 bpm), steady state, over long distances, such as a FM.

If you succeed with your UT1/Level 3 training, the game is won and your desired outcome over 2K, secured.

Your UT1/Level 3 rowing tests your effectiveness, efficiency, aerobic capacity, and endurance.

The only thing that it doesn't test is your anaerobic capacities.

But anaerobic capacities are pretty much fixed for everyone, and are easily developed, in standard ways, with a couple of months of anaerobic intervals.

ranger

[ranger]

Basically ... you row for fitness

Indeed.

You'all do.

And the result is inevitable:

You'all just get worse and worse.

For the last eight years, I haven't rowed for fitness at all.

My fitness has been maximal for a decade.

I have kept it that way with a lot of hard rowing and cross-training, in the normal case, 2-3 hours a day, rarely missing a day.

My goal for the last eight years has not been to improve my fitness.

I _can't_ improve my fitness.

My goal over the last eight years has been to learn to row well, to learn to take good (i.e., technically/mechanically effective and efficient) strokes.

As a result of this work on technique rather than fitness, I'll now do a FM 10 seconds per 500m better than I did ten years ago, an astonishing gain of a second per 500m per year, despite being a decade older.

Given that the normal decline with age from 50 to 60 is four seconds per 500m, the overall gain will be 14 seconds per 500m, which is pretty much the entire difference between the best young rowers in the world and 60s veterans.

ranger

[pmacaula]

Rich - Popped into this thread for the first time in many months & see not much has changed.

It is great that you keep fit and enjoy doing so. I salute your commitment to a healthy way of life and that you have moved from running to erging and rowing as the primary means of doing so. They are both low impact and, as Bob S. demonstrates so admirably, can be done well into your later years.

Racing from time to time can be a good motivator, but as you point out, is secondary to meeting your fitness and personal improvement goals, which can be at odds with racing objectives. The process of setting concrete targets and dates and a plan to meet them is a short term (a season or year) process. You are right to let the results be what they are. Don't get wrapped around the axle about when things happen. You are in it for long run health and fitness, which is all about sustainability.

All the best for a good summer season on the water and on the erg, whether you race or not.

Cheers. Patrick.

[ranger]

Rich - Popped into this thread for the first time in many months & see not much has changed.

It is great that you keep fit and enjoy doing so. I salute your commitment to a healthy way of life and that you have moved from running to erging and rowing as the primary means of doing so. They are both low impact and, as Bob S. demonstrates so admirably, can be done well into your later years.

Racing from time to time can be a good motivator, but as you point out, is secondary to meeting your fitness and personal improvement goals, which can be at odds with racing objectives. The process of setting concrete targets and dates and a plan to meet them is a short term (a season or year) process. You are right to let the results be what they are. Don't get wrapped around the axle about when things happen. You are in it for long run health and fitness, which is all about sustainability.

All the best for a good summer season on the water and on the erg, whether you race or not.

Cheers. Patrick.

Cheers to you, too, Patrick.

Of course.

Injury, sickness, staleness, and discouragement are the endgames of rowing.

And for most, just racing, and then preparing to race, and then racing, and then preparing to race, inevitably leads to one or more of these.

Ironically, racing and preparing to race also does nothing at all to make you better.

After you have done it just once, racing and preparing to race never made anyone any better.

When you race and prepare to race, you parade your strengths.

You get better by overcoming your weaknesses.

ranger

[whp4]

You get better by overcoming your weaknesses.

You have overcome none of your weaknesses: your technique still sucks, your weight is too high, your fitness is unimproved, you refuse to learn from others, and you are still a lying welsher, to name but a few of your issues. Why then do you think you have any chance of rowing any of the ridiculous goals you claim you are about to achieve? You would have a better chance to be named as department chair — in Computer Science

[ranger]

your technique still sucks

No, it doesn't.

It's now perfect.

I pull 13 SPI @ 120 df., just rowing naturally.

There is nothing exceptional about this, except that, for my age, I also have exceptional strength, quickness, endurance, etc.

I am a gym rate who has learned how to row well.

ranger