Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 30th, 2011, 3:13 pm

Citroen wrote:Have you calibrated it?
Yes.

It's calibrate to .00001 of a zillisecond.

It is the most precise instrument of measurement the world has ever seen.

It is more precise than Sarah's seven Swiss wristwatches set swiftly by Sarah's seven sweet sisters.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 30th, 2011, 5:23 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:Our intrepid hero obviously does not know what rowing short means.
Sure, I know what it means.

I just don't do it, at least, not very severely.

At the moment, I pull 7 SPI.

So, at 36 spm, I go 1:53.

By the end of this outdoor rowing season, I think I'll pull 8 SPI.

At 36 spm, that's 1:47.

That's plenty fast for a 60s rower.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by bellboy » May 30th, 2011, 6:09 pm

ranger wrote:
Citroen wrote:Have you calibrated it?
Yes.

It's calibrate to .00001 of a zillisecond.

It is the most precise instrument of measurement the world has ever seen.

It is more precise than Sarah's seven Swiss wristwatches set swiftly by Sarah's seven sweet sisters.

ranger
That would be a no then.

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Rockin Roland
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Rockin Roland » May 30th, 2011, 11:33 pm

ranger wrote:
Citroen wrote:Have you calibrated it?
Yes.

It's calibrate to .00001 of a zillisecond.

It is the most precise instrument of measurement the world has ever seen.

It is more precise than Sarah's seven Swiss wristwatches set swiftly by Sarah's seven sweet sisters.

ranger
Ranger, seriously. The NK stroke coach, out of the box, can't be fitted to any boat and give accurate speed readings. There are certain variables that influence the way it reads. The length of the boat and where exactly the impeller is mounted on the hull affect the data shown on the monitor. That's why you need to calibrate the unit to suit your boat before you can compare your readings with that of others in a 1X. Hence your 2:10 that you claim means nothing to anyone else.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.

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Rockin Roland
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Rockin Roland » May 30th, 2011, 11:55 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:
ranger wrote:
Rockin Roland wrote:The reason why you see 36 spm OTW is because your rowing very short.
In a 1K?

Not sure about that at all.

Good catches just make me faster.

I get more out of each stroke.

Good catches don't lower the rate.

OTW, even big heavyweights such as Xeno can rate 38 spm in a 2K.

The sprinting distance for a 60s rower is only 1K.

145 strokes?

ranger
Hi Roland,

Our intrepid hero obviously does not know what rowing short means.

Byron
Byron, you have to feal sorry for the guy.
He breaks some world records on the erg then jumps into a boat and expects it to react just like an erg.
He reckons he's already achieved excellent catches in the boat but in effect he's miss- timing the run of the boat, taking the catch too early, and consequently checking the run of the boat and slowing it down without knowing it.

After all, Ranger has had no formal coaching on the water. He's out there on some isolated streach of water floundering in his boat like some golf hack digging up the turf with his club on the green.

As Ranger has never received any kind of coaching on the water he believes everything is fine and simply doesn't know any different. Byron, don't you ever wish that you could sit on the bank and watch him train?
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.

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Rockin Roland
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Rockin Roland » May 31st, 2011, 12:26 am

ranger wrote:So, Roland.

Now that you are 50, are you going to break Ripley's long-standing 50s hwt 2K WR.

If not, why not?

Bad catch timing?

:D :D


ranger
I turn 50 in 29 days, but as most people on this form know, I sold my C2 erg over 12 months ago and have no desire to get back on one soon. I've moved on to using something that more accurately mimics the rowing stroke. You certainly can't practise timing at the catch on a static C2 erg like you think your doing.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 3:16 am

2:00 @ 28 spm is right around 9 MPS.

That's plenty long for me.

I would have to do 1:47 @ 28 spm to get to 10 MPS.

That would be 10 SPI and, even rowing perfectly, at 15 seconds above erg times, which I don't at all do OTW, is the equivalent of pulling 16 SPI OTErg, 1:32 @ 28 spm.

No, I won't be doing that--any time soon, or ever.

At some point, I might get to 8 SPI, though, 2:00 @ 25 spm.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on May 31st, 2011, 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 3:21 am

Rockin Roland wrote:You certainly can't practise timing at the catch on a static C2 erg like you think your doing.
Yes, you can.

That's what I am doing now.

The erg certainly _encourages_ you to mess up your timing of the catch, and that is certainly what I did for almost a decade.

But I am not doing it now.

Many of the best ergers are also the best OTW rowers, and vice versa.

There is no incompatibility between the two.

If you know how to do a proper catch OTW, you can do it OTErg, too.

It is just those who don't know how to do a proper catch OTW who don't know how to do a proper catch OTErg.

In blithe ignorance, they don't know what they are missing.

Even for the erg, a proper OTW catch OTErg, done at low drag, is more effective and efficient than any other sort of catch.

It is just harder to get right, as it is OTW, too.

It is not at all natural to take the catch with an upright posture at full compression entirely with the legs with the hips forward and the shoulders and core relaxed until the legs are done.

And at high drag, OTErg, this sort of OTW catch can't be done at all.

At high drag, you can't push your legs through quickly enough to get the timing right if you use the full slide, and you must use the full slide in order to get your angles of leverage right in the various parts of the OTW stroke.

If you are just learning how to do an OTW catch, OTErg, it is best done at minimal drag (e.g., 75 df.) to get used to the quickness and timing of the legs and footwork.

As I have been mentioning, if you do a proper OTW catch at low drag, OTErg, you can't help but get in and around 13 SPI for lightweight males, 16 SPI for heavyweight males--just naturally.

And, of course, almost no one does.

So almost no one does a proper OTW catch OTErg.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 3:42 am

Rockin Roland wrote:Ranger, seriously. The NK stroke coach, out of the box, can't be fitted to any boat and give accurate speed readings. There are certain variables that influence the way it reads. The length of the boat and where exactly the impeller is mounted on the hull affect the data shown on the monitor. That's why you need to calibrate the unit to suit your boat before you can compare your readings with that of others in a 1X. Hence your 2:10 that you claim means nothing to anyone else.
Sure it is, if you are rowing in the same boat.

I use the same calibration as John Pauls, who rows in the same boat, and is right around my age and weight.

John just uses a 1.0 calibration, right out of the box.

He says it's fine.

John works for FluidDesign.

John got eighth at the Head of the Charles last year, pulling 19:55, 2:03.5 pace, beating Mike VB.

John teamed up with Mike to win the lwt doubles at the US Masters nationals.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 4:07 am

OTErg, at the catch, the front of my seat is 5.5 inches from frontstops.

I would say that's using the full slide.

Rowing with a full, but natural, stroke, as I do in my daily FM training, this kind of length and OTW technique give me 13 SPI, e.g., 1:45 @ 23 spm and 135 kgF of peak force with my legs at the catch, at only a middlin' UT1 HR (e.g., 155 bpm), steady state.

Lordy.

That's rowing as well as any lightweight in the world, bar none.

You are certainly right, though.

You have row at low drag and get your catches right and use proper OTW technique elsewhere in the drive and recovery, too, to get this spectacular combination of effectiveness and efficiency.

120 df.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on May 31st, 2011, 4:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » May 31st, 2011, 4:27 am

ranger wrote:2:00 @ 28 spm is right around 9 MPS.

That's plenty long for me.
Still not getting it. Try again.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 4:30 am

PaulH wrote:
ranger wrote:2:00 @ 28 spm is right around 9 MPS.

That's plenty long for me.
Still not getting it. Try again.
9 MPS at 28 spm is plenty long for me.

Got it?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 4:44 am

Pulling 13 SPI at 120 df., 1:45 @ 23 spm, my ratio is _huge_.

Over 4-to-1.

This makes it feel as slow as the hills.

On each stroke cycle, I only work for .5 seconds.

Then I rest for 2.1 seconds.

Those who are taller, those who row at a higher drag, those who (short sliding) row with a lower stroking power, and those those who (short sliding) don't know how to do a proper OTW catch cannot achieve anything like this combination of effectiveness and efficiency.

Usually those who do/are one or another of the things above, do/are _all_ of above.

That's why technique is so important in rowing--both OTErg and OTW.

The other good 60s lwts would row 60min, HM, etc., at 9 SPI and 27 spm.

I suspect that that's a 2-to-1 ratio for them, _half_ the ratio I am using.

That's why, pulling 1:52 @ 27 spm, before long, they are pushing into AT.

They are not at UT2, which is where my HR rides now when I pull 1:52 @ 19 spm (13 SPI).

A 2-to-1 ratio is a 2K racing ratio, not a good ratio for distance rowing.

I'll now row 2K in a 2.5-to-1 ratio, 1:34 @ 35 spm, pulling 12 SPI at 120 df.

Pulling at 120 df. and 13 SPI, at 19 spm, I am in over a 5-to-1 ratio.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » May 31st, 2011, 5:10 am

ranger wrote: 9 MPS at 28 spm is plenty long for me.

Got it?

ranger
Got it perfectly, thanks - you don't understand what rowing short is, and assume that it can't be important because it doesn't have an acronym.

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 31st, 2011, 5:35 am

PaulH wrote:
ranger wrote: 9 MPS at 28 spm is plenty long for me.

Got it?

ranger
Got it perfectly, thanks - you don't understand what rowing short is.
Sure I do.

http://cuche.myshopify.com/products/rowing-short

But it looks like the one I want is sold out.

:D :D


ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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