Ranger's training thread

[PaulH]

I never said that you drive off the heels.

Yes, you did. And the discussion was about the catch, not about some later point in the drive.

I took the trouble to see what Byron *actually* said, rather than what ranger wants him to have said.

You have better balance at the catch if your feet are firmly planted and you can initiate a stronger drive.

Without the modification my heels do rise at the catch on the C2. With the modification the foot stayed planted during the entire stroke, just as it does in my boat. There is no point in trying to persuade you that the leg is in a stronger position to drive with the foot planted.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. What does "row off your heels" mean? Do I plant my heels and drive off the entire foot as soon as I can? Yes. There is no point in trying to convince you otherwise, but think of a clean, which is like the first part of the drive. Would you want to be up on your toes and balls of the feet? I say your glutes and quads are stronger than the calves. You, with your usual lack of reading comprehension, interpret that as saying I have weak calves and therefore must get the heels down as soon as possible. I never said that. What I said is that like most people my glutes and quads are stronger than my calves.

In summary it appears that Byron advocates driving with whichever bit of your foot gives you the most sustainable power (which may be the ball, heel or entire foot, depending on the point in the stroke), but to do it as far as possible with your entire foot on the stretchers, as that is the most stable position (c.f. powerlifters) wherever the power is coming from. Or in other words, not what ranger says he claims.

So ranger, do you have some evidence to back up your allegation?

[ranger]

Nice 12K OTW (just after dawn) after 20K OTErg (just before dawn).

I am making all sorts of progress with my OTW rowing, some of it due to my work on technique this winter OTErg.

My catches are getting much better--in posture, length, leverage, timing, footwork, bladework, etc.

I am pullling a solid 7 SPI OTW.

10MPS comes along 2:10 @ 23 spm.

Pulling 7 SPI, OTW, I think I will do 1K at 36 spm.

That 1:53.

About 140 strokes?

At this point, I would be happy with that.

OTW, I'll do some sprint interval workouts this spring, summer, and fall on a regular basis.

OTW, I have no problem staying organized at 36 spm.

ranger

[JimR]

In a complete misrepresentation ranger makes of something Byron has been consistent on (kudos to PaulH for providing details) ranger posts this?!

In any event, what is important is that you have it right now and realize that giving advice to others when you don't have a clue what you are doing yourself does no one any service.

ranger is the king of giving advice without a clue!

PaulH ... is there an easy way to paste every post ranger has ever made ... as proof of my statement???

JimR

[bellboy]

Rich- Have you learned to steer in a relatively straight line yet? You know, just so you dont cause yet another collision?

In my Lansing head race, I indeed went straight.

It was the river that turned!

The problem was not steering.

The problem was looking over my shoulder too infrequently to see where I was going.

There are lots of ways to turn the boat, once you are aware that you need to turn..

I have no problem steering.

I just need to get in the habit of looking more frequently.

I'll work on it this spring, summer, and fall.

I should be fine with this by the time of my row at the Head of the Charles in October.

ranger

Well considering the "millions" of metres you profess to have completed OTW you seem to have neglected the most important skill. You know? The look where your going bit so you dont crash into anyone? Fans of this thread will be unsurprised at yet more cackhanded training from Captain Chaos.

[PaulH]

PaulH ... is there an easy way to paste every post ranger has ever made ... as proof of my statement???

JimR

Well in theory you can click on his user name, then you'll see an option to view posts I think. But I'm not sure the computer the forum runs on can cope with a query that large too often, so be gentle!

[jliddil]

Advice like this?
Postby ranger » April 26th, 2006, 2:30 pm

i doubt anyone ever lay there wishing they had done one more 2K on the erg

What?

Who ever heard of such nonsense.

If we have the chance and don't take advantage of it, of course we will regret missing that perfect day, that perfect feel, that effortless power, that flawless technique, that burst of energy at 1700m, that rush to the finish!

You gotta be nuts, dude.

Don't leave any 2Ks behind. Do them all. Then you'll have no regrets.

Carpe ergo!

ranger

[Byron Drachman]

PaulH ... is there an easy way to paste every post ranger has ever made ... as proof of my statement???

JimR

Well in theory you can click on his user name, then you'll see an option to view posts I think. But I'm not sure the computer the forum runs on can cope with a query that large too often, so be gentle!

Someone once made a short list that summarizes all of Ranger's postings. Was it Chad? My apologies to the author of the elegant summary. I don't remember the exact list but all of Ranger's postings known to mankind were included in the list. The list was something like this but the original list was more succinct and more complete:

1. As soon as I am fully trained and sharpened I will do a 1:48 FM and a 6:16 2K.

2. I did three WR's in 2003 and I am so much better now.

3. I will start doing 20K OTE and 20K OTW any day now.

4. I am a lightweight because I can make weight and that doesn't affect my performance.

5. I did poorly because I had to make weight.

6. I am delighted with my progress. I just learned to row. I am right on schedule.

7. These things take time. It is stupid to follow a schedule.

8. I know you are but what am I? (ala PeeWee Herman)

9. I am the greatest erger ever.

10. Nobody rows better OTW than me in my age group, therefore I do not need lessons.

11. I will do a (specified) timed piece tomorrow.

12. I did not do the timed piece because I have moved on to more important things.

13. If I don't do any of my stated goals by [specified date] then I will pay Henry for the bet I lost.

14. I did not lose the bet with Henry. I am sure he will pay me as soon as I win the bet because he is honorable.

[mikvan52]

Someone once made a short list that summarizes all of Ranger's postings. Was it Chad? (snip)

(list of 14)

Don't forget to overemphasize the spi !

How about adding ...

#15. I now row well, precisely and efficiently, at 12.5 spi. I know this because I do not record my stroke rate or wattage. Keeping workout records and sharing them would be ruinous because it would mean racing workouts.

#16. I am now ready to race. But first I must sharpen for 6 months by racing all the indoor regattas that have questionable weigh-in procedures.

#17. Racing is redundant. I will win WIRC (2006 - 2011) { did not race any of these }

[Rockin Roland]

Nice 12K OTW (just after dawn) after 20K OTErg (just before dawn).

I am making all sorts of progress with my OTW rowing, some of it due to my work on technique this winter OTErg.

My catches are getting much better--in posture, length, leverage, timing, footwork, bladework, etc.


ranger

Your technique work during winter OTErg would have adversely affected your technique in your Fluid single. This is based on the videos I've seen of you on the erg and the fact that training on static ergs tends to trash your technique for the water anyway. Your timing at the catch and finish would be out and you'd be missing water at the catch. Due to having to take up chain slack with each stroke on the erg your body sequence in the boat would also be out.

[Rockin Roland]

10MPS comes along 2:10 @ 23 spm.

ranger

Not for you though Ranger. For a good masters sculler it would, however your still a long way off that.

At 23 spm, at your standard OTW, you'd be lucky to see 2:30 on the StrokeCoach.

[Rockin Roland]

OTW, I have no problem staying organized at 36 spm.

ranger

The reason why you see 36 spm OTW is because your rowing very short. Your stroke length on the water is effectively only half that of an average skilled sculler.

[ranger]

OTW, I have no problem staying organized at 36 spm.

ranger

The reason why you see 36 spm OTW is because your rowing very short. Your stroke length on the water is effectively only half that of an average skilled sculler.

Not sure about that, but you are right that I can still get quite a bit more length, in my estimation, about five seconds per 500m at the same rate.

Given my age, though, even now, there is nothing wrong with 2:05 @ 25 spm, 1:53 @ 36 spm, etc.

No 60-year-old does any better.

Sure, 2:00 @ 25 spm would preferable, but I am still only a beginner.

I didn't start sculling until I was 54 years old.

I am getting there.

These things take time.

ranger

[ranger]

OTErg, I am now pulling at least 12 SPI at 120 df. in all of my rowing.

I will do all of my distance trials at 12 SPI (or better), and all of my sharpening.

Pulling 12 SPI, at the most, I will only have to rate 35 spm to row a lwt 6:16 for 2K.

If I pull 12.5 SPI in a 2K, as I might, 33.5 SPI will be enough.

If I pull 13 SPI, I will only have to rate 32 spm.

35 spm @ 12 SPI is 1:34/6:16.

Given my short little lightweight legs, the high stroking power, and the low drag, ratios at these middlin' 30s rates are still very high for me, in and around 2.5-to-1, for 32 spm, just over 3-to-1.

My drive time is only .5 seconds, if that.

Those who are taller (e.g., big 60s heavyweights like Hendershott), who pull with less stroking power (e.g., other 60s lightweights or my former self back in 2002-2003), and/or who row at a higher drag (e.g., my former self back in 2002-2003, or even my former self up to just recently) might well approach a 1-to-1 ratio at 35 spm.

For an older rower, pulling a 2K in a 1-to-1 ratio at 35 spm is a difficult affair.

2.5-to-1 is another matter entirely.

Subjectively, speed in rowing is heavily dependent on ratio, the amount of time your are working in each stroke cycle relative to the amount of time you are resting.

For racing, a 2.5-to-1 ratio feels slow; a 1-to-1 ratio feels fast.

ranger

[ranger]

10MPS comes along 2:10 @ 23 spm.

ranger

Not for you though Ranger. For a good masters sculler it would, however your still a long way off that.

At 23 spm, at your standard OTW, you'd be lucky to see 2:30 on the StrokeCoach.

I use a stroke coach, Roland.

I see 2:10 @ 23 spm--10 MPS.

ranger

[ranger]

Your technique work during winter OTErg would have adversely affected your technique in your Fluid single. This is based on the videos I've seen of you on the erg and the fact that training on static ergs tends to trash your technique for the water anyway. Your timing at the catch and finish would be out and you'd be missing water at the catch. Due to having to take up chain slack with each stroke on the erg your body sequence in the boat would also be out.

Yes, my work on technique OTErg this winter indeed affected my technique OTW--enormously.

For the better.

My timing, sequencing, posture, angles of leverage, quickness, preparation, length, etc., are now excellent OTErg, and are in just the order they should be OTW.

So my daily work OTErg does not at all interfere with my daily work OTW, or vice versa.

Each helps the other.

If I can get to a daily 20K of each, 20K OTErg just before dawn and then 20K OTW just after dawn, the game is won, given that I am now rowing at rates in the middle 20s (23-27 spm), which isn't low rate rowing at all, but with only a UT1 HR.

At rates in the middle 20s, I am now getting an easy 13 SPI OTErg (e.g., 1:44 @ 24 spm).

That's rowing perfectly for a lightweight of any age.

Given my age and size, that the stroke I am now using is an OTW stroke is demonstrated by the low drag (120 df.), high stroking power (13 SPI), and high peak force (135 kgF.) up front in my stroke with my legs.

I didn't do anything like this sort of rowing back in 2002-2003, when I set WRs OTErg, and after 2004, when I took up rowing OTW, fell right out of my 1x every time I tried to take a stroke.

Back then, OTErg, I rowed at max drag (200+ df.), with a low stroking power (9-10 SPI) and a low peak force (90 kg.F) up front in my stroke with my legs.

When I pull something like 1:42 @ 26 spm for 60min pretty soon, the whole house of cards of you nay-sayers will crash down with a thud.

That will be well over a mile further than anyone my age and size has ever rowed for an hour and will predict a 6:08 2K.

The Open lwt 2K American record is right around 6:08.

It will be six seconds per 500m faster than I could row for 60min ten years ago.

It will be 10 seconds per 500m faster than any 60s lwt has ever rowed for 60min.

It will beat the _50s_, _heavyweight_ WR for 60min by almost half a mile.

BTW, you have never seen me row at low drag OTErg and anything you have seen from OTW is three years old.

So any videos you are referring to are not relevant to the present conversation.

I'll post some videos of my rowing now, both OTErg and OTW, so that you can base your comments on something that is more relevant.

ranger