Technique critique on slides

[jlawson58]

Here is my latest technique. It is also different from a month ago because I now have slides which is quite different and requires me to pay much more attention to the various segments of the stroke.

Anyway, despite the embarrassment from my larger than normal gut, I am posting the video with me shirtless so that it might be easier to see what muscle groups I am engaging and when.

There is a brief period in the middle of the video where my daughter doesn't have me framed very well but it doesn't last long. This was a nice hard pace for me and I actually set a new record from 1 hour (15100m).

[Tinus]

Did you have any thoughts about your technique yourself?

From my point of view it looks pretty good. Especially the control of the movement is relaxed and smooth. You only need subtle adjustments.

- I would say that your hip angle opens a little too early/fast at the catch and this happens a bit together with getting the arms and the chain in the same line. I get the idea that, in this way, your catch starts with accelerating the body and engaging handle displacement is delayed. Your legs move nicely continuous at the catch and there isn't much of a brake at the catch. But I have the idea that you could have an increase in applying power with the legs/knees. Maybe feel like slightly lowering the speed after the catch, relax the upper body a little bit more at the catch (the well known hanging on the handle) and in this way acquire a higher pressure/force in the hips and knees. The hip and knee angular velocities should be about the same. At this point your hip angle starts faster or differently your quadriceps are delayed. (See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard%27s_Paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_con ... ationships http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception)

- I like the change of direction of the trunk at the finish. The trunk is very calm and firm in the back position. It's return is well timed and blends together with the finish of the arms. However, I would personally try to put a little bit more momentum in the trunk while moving the arms a little bit more slow. The movement of the arms seems currently very fast. It is about half a meter in a tenth of second while you can take much more time for those arms. Much of this is personal but you might try to see if you like it.

- Also another personal thing but you may try it. You are now pulling the handle relatively high. A lot people do this but it may be doubtful whether this really improves power and/or endurance. The amount of extra handle distance isn't much and the applied force could be very low. You should stop the video at the finish, look at the angles of your wrist and elbow and imagine how much force you are exerting. If you lower your handle than your wrist could be stronger without a bend, also your elbows could be moved more backwards using more contraction of the muscles in the back instead of the biceps. If this doesn't feel nice because of a too high handle speed then you may consider a higher drag setting. I have the idea that you could obtain more power at the finish.

[Tinus]

- I would say that your hip angle opens a little too early/fast at the catch and this happens a bit together with getting the arms and the chain in the same line. I get the idea that, in this way, your catch starts with accelerating the body and engaging handle displacement is delayed. Your legs move nicely continuous at the catch and there isn't much of a brake at the catch. But I have the idea that you could have an increase in applying power with the legs/knees. Maybe feel like slightly lowering the speed after the catch, relax the upper body a little bit more at the catch (the well known hanging on the handle) and in this way acquire a higher pressure/force in the hips and knees. The hip and knee angular velocities should be about the same. At this point your hip angle starts faster or differently your quadriceps are delayed. (See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard%27s_Paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_con ... ationships http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception)

Related, you can see your heels being raised relatively late and only just before/after you start the drive. It looks as if you start compression in your quadriceps relatively late (compression while the muscles stretch during recovery) and have less elastic use of the leg muscles. Or you have compression in your quadriceps (difficult to see but you should feel it) but you reposition your legs when you are about to contract the muscle. I would expect a better efficiency of the legs when you finish in the same position in which you'd like to start. In that way you stretch the same muscle fibres (store energy) which you are about to use.
Also raising the heels will raise the knees while you'd like to do the contrary, press the knees downwards after the catch.

[GlassJoe]

I won't pretend to give you technique advice, but those slides look cool as can be. How much more space does it take up than the rower sans slides?

I've gotten a lot better at ensuring that my legs do the majority of the work, but it just looks like perhaps it's easier to focus on leg drive with the slides since you're pushing the whole rower away from your stationary body. I haven't a clue if that's the case....it may be even harder to feel like the legs are engaging, but that's how it looks to me.

[Bob S.]

I won't pretend to give you technique advice, but those slides look cool as can be. How much more space does it take up than the rower sans slides?

From the C2 website:

Space Requirements

Sliding Single
To use a pair of Slides with one indoor rower, we recommend a space of 11' x 4'. This works on Models A, B, C, D and E Indoor Rowers.

I've gotten a lot better at ensuring that my legs do the majority of the work, but it just looks like perhaps it's easier to focus on leg drive with the slides since you're pushing the whole rower away from your stationary body. I haven't a clue if that's the case....it may be even harder to feel like the legs are engaging, but that's how it looks to me.

Works that way for me.

Bob S.

[carlb]

I'd say using the back too early in the drive, see this
http://concept2.co.uk/training/faults_corrections#tip8
Fault "The rower starts the Drive by swinging the body back rather than pushing the legs. This results in a weak movement"
Correction "The legs bring the drive and the body levers back with the arms fully extended and relaxed."

My thinking... leaned forward back position is held firm at the catch and held until knee is at about a 90 degree angle.
Drive pushs off balls of feet and at about 90 degree knee angle rotate foot down to flat firm foot and engage and open back.

At the finish the bar may be pulled up a little high and wrists bent, see tip 2 on faults page.


The above links have stills, the faults video on the UK site is nice
http://concept2.co.uk/training/faults_corrections_video
also these stills
http://concept2.co.uk/training/technique

[carlb]

How much more space does it take up than the rower sans slides?

One other size issue I have with slides is they are 56" x 24", so almost 5 feet long and 26 lbs each! May be the OP can comment on how awkward they are to move and store. They are that big to allow for 2+ ergs in a team row. I was told a smaller slide may come out, they can cut down to about 40x24 by just allowing 1 erg.

[ausrwr]

The previous posters have all mentioned that you're opening the back before the legs, but it's notable that your hips are starting to lose angle as you come into the catch (after a little bit of a late lunge). By that, I mean that there's not enough flexbility in the hips flexors to maintain angle into and out of the catch.

My thoughts on this would be:
aim to get all your body and hip rotation by half slide. And for the moment, it doesn't need to be a massive amount, just enough to transfer your weight forward onto the feet. The issues you're going to need to deal with are: gut and hip flexibility (I'm starting on one, and have none of the second), both of which prevent you from maintaining the angle.

So, when you've got that angle, just roll in and out of the catch with the body doing as little as possble. Think of the catch as legs only, the arms just hanging off the handle until the legs are almost flat. You can practice this by just rowing legs only and watching the video - ie plugging the video into TV and watching for instant feedback

[jlawson58]

Thanks everyone for the comments. I went back and looked at some of my videos from when I first started and I see some noticeable improvements, but some other areas where I am not doing as well. Primarily I am talking about the premature opening of the back during the leg drive which you all mentioned.

However, that is something I am still having trouble getting a grasp on. To me it feels like I get a better connection and get more power by doing it the way I have been lately. However, my biggest problem is understanding what is considered "good form". What I mean by that is that everyone keeps saying to keep your back angle the same as at the catch until the leg drive is at least halfway finished, and when I look at slow motion videos online I see a lot of outstanding rowers doing just that. Unfortunately I also see several Olympic/World Champion rowers opening their back almost as soon as the leg drive starts (granted, still not before the leg drive like I have been <vbg>).

Check out the C2 technique video on slides for example. When Peter D gets on the slides about halfway through the video he clearly begins opening his back up almost as soon as he starts his leg drive, which is in sharp contrast to the female Olympian who keeps her back in the same position much longer. Another video of an Olympic champion (some French lady maybe?) showed her doing the same thing. Finally, the 50+ guy that had the fastest overall time at the first erg pull that I was in, pulled a 6:30 something, was a college rower, and was working with me after the meet, and told me that the back should open at exactly the same time as the legs.

So, the bottom line is I am SO confused. I know I am too early with my current form but can't for the life of me figure out what (or who) I should be emulating.

I have been trying to work on getting into position earlier on the recovery and getting a slightly lower arm pull with flatter wrists though, in addition to at least a later start to the back opening.

[slwiser]

So, the bottom line is I am SO confused. I know I am too early with my current form but can't for the life of me figure out what (or who) I should be emulating.

I have been trying to work on getting into position earlier on the recovery and getting a slightly lower arm pull with flatter wrists though, in addition to at least a later start to the back opening.

My take on all the technique videos is that there are actually two groups one is like the woman you referred to where you keep the back straight till much later than you do. There is a second group that suggests the back begin to open about half way into the leg drive. Both are valid. I have seen a study that discusses power profile comparing both.

This can be found using google I think or someone else may have direct memory of this study.

Here is the link that I was referring too:http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2006_files ... News05.pdf
and this book reference, scroll down to find the section on styles:http://www.scribd.com/doc/36809949/2006 ... -Mechanics

There are other links around the net if you put into Google these search words: biomechanics of rowing Grinko adam rosenberg styles

[jlawson58]

So, the bottom line is I am SO confused. I know I am too early with my current form but can't for the life of me figure out what (or who) I should be emulating.

I have been trying to work on getting into position earlier on the recovery and getting a slightly lower arm pull with flatter wrists though, in addition to at least a later start to the back opening.

My take on all the technique videos is that there are actually two groups one is like the woman you referred to where you keep the back straight till much later than you do. There is a second group that suggests the back begin to open about half way into the leg drive. Both are valid. I have seen a study that discusses power profile comparing both.

This can be found using google I think or someone else may have direct memory of this study.

Here is the link that I was referring too:http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2006_files ... News05.pdf
and this book reference, scroll down to find the section on styles:http://www.scribd.com/doc/36809949/2006 ... -Mechanics

There are other links around the net if you put into Google these search words: biomechanics of rowing Grinko adam rosenberg styles

Thanks !!!! That absolutely awesome ! As a science guy I have always been a big proponent of using data and understanding the science behind sport (I was one of the earlier adopters of using a power meter in cycling for example) and this fits perfectly with that. I particularly like the section on the force curve. Looking at mine I see that I match the DDR style almost exactly. It is also great to see it broken down and explained is great detail like he did. Because I have long legs (even for my height) and have developed them over the years with biking and running, I am going to see if I can't change my style and develop an Adam or Grinko style. My only question now would be is one better suited to someone with fast twitch fibers vs more slow twitch, or does that matter. I wish the author would have addressed that issue as well.

[Bob S.]

Here is the link that I was referring too:http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2006_files ... News05.pdf
and this book reference, scroll down to find the section on styles:http://www.scribd.com/doc/36809949/2006 ... -Mechanics

There are other links around the net if you put into Google these search words: biomechanics of rowing Grinko adam rosenberg styles

The emphasis in these links is OTW rowing and the findings do not necessarily apply directly to erging.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Check out the C2 technique video on slides for example. When Peter D gets on the slides about halfway through the video he clearly begins opening his back up almost as soon as he starts his leg drive, which is in sharp contrast to the female Olympian who keeps her back in the same position much longer.

Although Peter D is one of the inventors of the erg, he has some technique flaws. The one I noticed the most was not getting his hands away fast enough at the finish. They have to do a bit of roller-coasterinig over his rising knees. Maybe it is a problem of bringing his knees up to early. But in any case, I was surprised to see a very experienced OTW rower with the roller coaster problem.

Bob S.

[Tinus]

However, that is something I am still having trouble getting a grasp on. To me it feels like I get a better connection and get more power by doing it the way I have been lately. However, my biggest problem is understanding what is considered "good form". What I mean by that is that everyone keeps saying to keep your back angle the same as at the catch until the leg drive is at least halfway finished, and when I look at slow motion videos online I see a lot of outstanding rowers doing just that.

I personally am not often worried about a back opening early. A problem exists when the back opens before the legs start. In your video you can see that the back opens while the legs are doing practically nothing. If you'd work them together then you'd require much lower muscle contraction velocities because the handle movement isn't all due to a single body part any more. With such movement it should be possible to apply more power. You should see this type of early opening of the back as something different than what is pinpointed in the rowing styles specifications.

A little bit less strictly related to opening the back but in your case it coincides: Opening the back may be a movement in which the trunk becomes accelerated without much happening with the handle. The power generated by the muscles is first stored into body momentum and transferred to the handle a bit later. This requires relatively larger static forces or even induces shocks and may be more harmful for backbone structures.

You may also note that your case is much more like fine tuning and you aren't really making strong errors. You should regard the recommended changes as something like 'do more like this' instead of 'do less of that'. I hate those rowing manuals which discuss rowing in terms of errors.

Maybe if you'd stop your video just after the catch (let the catch be the point when the chain and arms are aligned) and examine your position then things become more clear.

[xenotheolympian]

We have an online semi-private rowing seminar at www.xenorowingcoach.com.