SkiErg vs SkiFast Erg

[floatingbones]

Company's URL is http://skifastergo.com/ . The obvious advantage of this new erg is that it allows for both separate arm movements -- simulating both traditional x-c and skating x-c upper body movement.

Has anyone tried both machines?

[carlb]

I would guess it is based on this machine http://www.kayakpro.com/ which is priced almost $3k but the skier is priced a lot less to compete directly with the price of the C2. Both sites ref Grayson Bourne.

The resistance must be a lot less then the C2 the way the video appears to show him jerking the straps easily, and doing the alternating one arm. Reminds me of the Nordic track skier.

[floatingbones]

I would guess it is based on this machine http://www.kayakpro.com/ which is priced almost $3k but the skier is priced a lot less to compete directly with the price of the C2. Both sites ref Grayson Bourne.

The resistance must be a lot less then the C2 the way the video appears to show him jerking the straps easily, and doing the alternating one arm. Reminds me of the Nordic track skier.

I see what you're seeing with the alternating arms. However, the video also shows him with high force when double-poling. It is very difficult to get a feel for the machine from that one marketing video.

Any idea why the kayak ergs are so expensive?

[carlb]

I see what you're seeing with the alternating arms. However, the video also shows him with high force when double-poling. It is very difficult to get a feel for the machine from that one marketing video.
Any idea why the kayak ergs are so expensive?

I would guess much sales lower volume, plus no competition so a premium price. C2 rowers are everywhere (gyms, cruise ships, colleges, homes) and seen as an excellent general fitness machine the uses a lot of muscle. To me the canoe and kayak stroke look like they use much less (or none) of the legs. I can't see it as a general fitness device. The kayak erg is 10' x 2' and does not break in half. It needs 9' of width to use, so for home use that's a lot of space.

Actually going to kayak/canoe on real water seems much more accessable then rowing. The price of the kayak is reasonable and easy to transport. You can see where you are going. Seems like a great thing to cross train with bike or run.

I wonder if the SkiErg could provide a useful workout to the kayak/canoe athlete working the core, arms and back. Double poling is not the same stroke but it looks close and if you work the muscles so what. Maybe kayak pro had to go there, but they created a new brand. Their machines take up more space then a C2 rower, the upright skier design is a much better fit as a home workout device.

One thing they suggest on their site is buying real XC pole straps and replacing the ones they provide. I want to look into that. I feel the C2 straps on the back of my hands, they don't bother me a lot, but if there are some cushy XC straps I would try them. Or maybe there are gloves that the guys doing roller skiing use that are made to be cool in summer.

[floatingbones]

One thing they suggest on their site is buying real XC pole straps and replacing the ones they provide. I want to look into that. I feel the C2 straps on the back of my hands, they don't bother me a lot, but if there are some cushy XC straps I would try them. Or maybe there are gloves that the guys doing roller skiing use that are made to be cool in summer.

The Leki Trigger 3 NW Shark Strap would be ideal -- if the SkiErg came with appropriate mounts on their handles. That is the mounting system that Leki uses for their nordic walking, roller skiing, and nordic skiing poles. I have a pair of the older Trigger 1 straps with my Leki walking poles. They're very nice: efficient transfer of forces with no chafing/rubbing.

One unrelated question: does the SkiErg work well with a slightly asymmetric double-pole technique: one pull just a tad before the other?

[joshc]

Nordic ski pole grips/strap systems have been tested on the Skierg, but the integrety of the grips did not hold up to prolonged use. If you look at it, when on poles the grips are pushing down on the poles, but on the Skierg the grips pull down the handle cords and after awhile pulled through the less durable plastic ski grip. There are some folks I know out there using their ski pole grips instead of what comes on the Skierg from the factory, but they will have to replace them eventually. I know some work went into the grip to get the weight and return to acurately reflect that of skiing on snow and the Nordic Pole grips had too light of a return.

[macroth]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but are there any plans to add single-poling to the SkiErg? What was the rationale behind not making it available in the first place?

[David Hart]

Hi macroth,

From http://www.skierg.com/skierg/faqs:

Concept2 designed the SkiErg to deliver the most effective ski exercise for the price. The hand position can be varied to simulate skate V1 (either direction), V2, or classic double pole; the SkiErg is not designed for classic diagonal, alternating arm swing. The conditioning, however, will transfer to all variations of Nordic skiing. The two-armed technique is preferred because it involves more muscles, resulting in increased aerobic demand, calorie burn, and overall higher quality workout. This technique strengthens and involves all the same muscles as single-sticking in a more efficient motion.

Our factory direct pricing philosophy ensures that customers buy direct from the manufacturer, allowing clubs and growing programs to afford the best training tools. Creating machines with separate left and right hands would require significantly more complex systems and higher costs. Our goal is to grow the sport of skiing by offering high-quality, affordable ways for athletes to train.

There are no plans at the moment to add single-poling.

Best,

David Hart
Concept2

[mrpiii]

I love my SkiErg but one thing the SkiFast does apparently have is the ability to add much better display and data collection. The PM4 is almost an antique in data collection and display. I use my Suunto T6c for data collection combined with FirstBeat Athlete. That dates back to 2003. There is a lot of equipment now that enables you to use an iPad, iPhone or Android device to record and display detailed data. The ErgBuddy was a decent start but it seems to have stalled.

[carlb]

I love my SkiErg but one thing the SkiFast does apparently have is the ability to add much better display and data collection. The PM4 is almost an antique in data collection and display. I use my Suunto T6c for data collection combined with FirstBeat Athlete. That dates back to 2003. There is a lot of equipment now that enables you to use an iPad, iPhone or Android device to record and display detailed data. The ErgBuddy was a decent start but it seems to have stalled.

The PM4 can send its data (watts,pace,spm,etc) via ANT+ to your T6C so it can store it with HR data. It might only work with Garmin. Are you using that? I think you have to install the Beta version of the PM software. There are some threads on it. Some are in the UK forums.

The only "improvement" I see the SkiFast monitor does is a weight adjustment. The 10 pg manual didn't have much info, and neither does the website. Its all a copy of the KayakPro site.

Their $230 PC software looks interesting with nice looking graphs. But there is little info on it, no decent screen caps, no more on the KayakPro site. RowPro, or the free RowIt, provide a running graph for C2 PM's.

[mrpiii]

The Suunto isn't ANT+ compatible but the PM4 can talk to the Suunto T6c and provide some data. A major issue is us older guys with fading vision can't see the PM4 screen very well (I think the sweat pouring into my eyes doesn't help much either). I have a Wahoo key installed on my iPad and the beta software on my PM4 but it only works sometimes and has limited data display capability. I'm not planning on getting a SkiFast and I don't mean to try to compare the products. What I do think is that Concept 2 should be improving the ability of the user to collect and analyze the data generated. I would be valuable for professional teams as well as those of us who are trying to optimize our training and perhaps provide some distraction from the pain and suffering.

[Citroen]

A major issue is us older guys with fading vision can't see the PM4 screen very well (I think the sweat pouring into my eyes doesn't help much either).

Press [change display] four times or press the bottom grey button. That puts the PM3 / PM4 into "LARGE PRINT" mode.

[carlb]

A major issue is us older guys with fading vision can't see the PM4 screen very well

Try adjusting your contrast. From the main page select More Options, Utilities, LCD Contrast. You should also adjust the height and angle of the PM for optimal viewing from most (or desired) positions on he rail. The wrong LCD or tilt settings will make the PM hard to read. I wear bifocals and I don't have a problem....once contrast/tilt is good.

What I do think is that Concept 2 should be improving the ability of the user to collect and analyze the data generated. I would be valuable for professional teams as well as those of us who are trying to optimize our training and perhaps provide some distraction from the pain and suffering.

C2 have supported data down the USB cable for a long time and there is 3rd party software to grab i, display it, graph it, and log it. I use RowIt sometimes for a graphic display, and RowPro is very popular. Others are here http://www.concept2.com/us/service/software/default.asp. For the very serious they have 2 different APIs to their USB data available to software developers. Plus the new ANT+ rowing data broadcast that works with Garmin.

There's the ErgMonitor software that requires a modification to the wiring. The fonts don't look large.
http://www.ps-sport.net/ergmonitor.htm

So IMO C2 allows pretty good data collection outside of the PM.

[mrpiii]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply carib. You've given me some food for thought and research.

On another note I tried out the SkiFast today at the packet pickup for the Boulder Mountain Tour. Sor far Concept2 has nothing to worry about. Someone at SkiFast didn't do their research. The resistance is way too low for double poling, when alternating arms it is fair, but not really sufficient. They do use Swix ski handles, a feature I like, but upon cross examination, the person with the SkiFast admitted there is a problem with the handles popping off.