Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

Byron--

Of course, there are other possible mixtures of the variables.

These are just two of the mixtures that I have been interested in.

Mike VB doesn't use either of these alternatives.

Then again, he rows 1:48 with an AT HR (for me, 180 bpm) and has to stop at 5K.

So that isn't a viable alternative for me.

My 5K target is 1:39 @ 31 spm (11.7 SPI).

ranger

[ranger]

Indeed. That's why when you said "I can steer just fine" you were wrong.

Depends what you mean by "steer."

I can turn the boat.

No doubt, but can you row in a straight line?

Sure.

That's what I did at Grand Rapids.

But the river turned!



ranger

[ranger]

The peak force on my stroke back in 2003 rowing poorly at max drag was 90 kg.F.

The peak force on my stroke now rowing well at low drag (95 df.) is 120 kg.F.

I don't know for sure, but when I approach race rates, I think my drive time now might be verging on _half_ of what it was in 2003.

My ratios at the same rate are now twice what they were in 2003.

ranger

[mikvan52]

I am not sure you have experienced what this feels like skeletal-muscularly to your various levers, not to mention your heart and lungs.

Have you?

He's been spouting this garbage for years. What in heavens name does it mean?
I wonder if he even assigns meaning to it after all these years..

Levers...
Stroking Power
The feel of the lungs as distinguished from "feeling" the heart...

Total garbage..
Weirdly fascinating...


How many days now until the fm is abandoned?
I say April 22nd...

Remember last fall when ranger was going to go down to the Grand once a week to test row the course?
His FM training is just like that... he never actually does it... He says he "should"... but that's as far as it gets.

Rich: When you row the erg, so you ever "SELECT WORKOUT"... or is it always the default, JUST ROW?

[mikvan52]

I wonder if ranger knows that "peak force" on the front end w/o sustaining the stroke all the way through until the release will not move a boat.
It's adequate for the erg...

Spiking a force curve the way ranger does may generate wonderment among a few.. Perhaps that's why he does it.
It's bad rowing but good erging.
Practice such technique enough and you're dead in the water.

[Byron Drachman]

In simpler terms, the alternative would be to go the same pace with the least peak force possible.

I don't see any concrete illustrations.

Could you provide some?

The variables are levers, rate, stroking power, drag, ratio, and pace.

You only mention a couple of the variables.

My interest is a FM @ 1:48.

Sure, you get much less peak force at max drag anchor-hauling with your upper body, but you also get a much heavier chain, a much longer drive time, a much lower ratio, weaker levers, less stroking power, and a higher rate.

I am not sure you have experienced what this feels like skeletal-muscularly to your various levers, not to mention your heart and lungs.

Have you?

I'll certainly test your claims when I race a FM later on this month.

Rowing as you suggest I pulled 1:54/2:40 for a FM ten years ago.

Rowing that way now, ten years later, the prediction is that I would pull 1:58.

It will be interesting to see what I can do now with my legs, a high peak force, a low drag, a low rate, a short drive time, and a huge ratio.

Rowing as you suggest at 1:48, my HR ten years ago was a steady 172 bpm at 28 spm.

Rowing as I do now at 1:48, my HR is a steady 145 bpm at 24 spm, ten years later.

ranger

My first illustration will come from cycling. Although there are exceptions such as Jan Ulrich, in a long event like a road race cyclists traditionally do the first part of the race at a higher cadence, say 100 revs/min, with less force applied each stroke. This is counter-intuitive because when people are tested in labs, it is more efficient to pedal at a lower cadence, more efficient in the sense that less oxygen is used. However, cycling has a very long history and people know that cycling at a higher cadence, hence less force applied, delays the build-up of by-products and fatigue. Usually later in a race as a cyclist becomes tired the cadence drops because pedaling at a higher rate requires coordination and it is hard to maintain good form as fatigue sets in.

Second illustration comes from the Effective Sculling DVD, where they say you do not want too fast of a leg drive. In addition to what I mentioned, blade slip is an issue on the water, even though it is less of an issue with bigger blades, and if the drive is too fast you will get more blade slip, what people call "moving water instead of the boat." Of course there is always some slip, but you don't want more than necessary.

It is not necessary to resort to anchor hauling in order to reduce the peak force.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if I have rowed a marathon? The answer is yes.

[bellboy]

I am not sure you have experienced what this feels like skeletal-muscularly to your various levers, not to mention your heart and lungs.

Have you?

He's been spouting this garbage for years. What in heavens name does it mean?
I wonder if he even assigns meaning to it after all these years..

Levers...
Stroking Power
The feel of the lungs as distinguished from "feeling" the heart...

Total garbage..
Weirdly fascinating...


How many days now until the fm is abandoned?
I say April 22nd...

Remember last fall when ranger was going to go down to the Grand once a week to test row the course?
His FM training is just like that... he never actually does it... He says he "should"... but that's as far as it gets.

Rich: When you row the erg, so you ever "SELECT WORKOUT"... or is it always the default, JUST ROW?

Mike. I take 23rd April. Its St George's Day, Shakespeare's birthday and the date my sister came moaning into this world. This will run concurently with the new and improved Ranger Bingo that im sure one if this threads adherents is in the middle of creating.

[mikvan52]

Interesting that the 60-69 lwt WR only requires a 1:59.2 avg pace

"42195 2:47:45.7 64 Malcolm Fawcett L M GBR 2005 Historical record* "

It's safe...

ranger "plans" to attempt the record as a hwt anyway...

[ranger]

'm not sure I understand your question.

If you row at low drag and lower your peak force, you reduce your stroking power.

If you keep the same pace but reduce your stroking power, then you need to raise the rate.

Sure, most 60s lwts pull 9 SPI.

They keep their peak force low.

But if you are going to pull 1:48 for a FM but are only going to pull 9 SPI, then you have to rate 31 spm.

Is that what you are suggesting?

It would be better for me to rate 31 spm @ 9 SPI than 24 spm @ 11.5 SPI?

Since the 60s lwt FM WR is 2:00, I presume that the best anyone my age and weight has ever done is about 22 spm @ 9 SPI.

Why is that?

ranger

[ranger]

Interesting that the 60-69 lwt WR only requires a 1:59.2 avg pace

"42195 2:47:45.7 64 Malcolm Fawcett L M GBR 2005 Historical record* "

It's safe...

Hardly.

The 50s lwt FM WR is 1:51.

The normal decline with age is four seconds per 500m per decade.

Therefore, a 60s lwt, sooner than later, should do 1:55 for a FM.

If I do my hwt 60s FM at 1:48 at the end of the month, I'll try to get to weight and do the same as a lighweight.

ranger

[mikvan52]

'm not sure I understand your question.

If you row at low drag and lower your peak force, you reduce your stroking power.

ranger term (not existing elsewhere, as in the real world: Stroking power

ranger obsession: momentary high force= "peak force"

Oh, Rich?... wattage is area under the force curve... not the impressive blip at the front end....

Stroking power is not wattage ...

[mikvan52]

Interesting that the 60-69 lwt WR only requires a 1:59.2 avg pace

"42195 2:47:45.7 64 Malcolm Fawcett L M GBR 2005 Historical record* "

It's safe...

Hardly.

The 50s lwt FM WR is 1:51.

The normal decline with age is four seconds per 500m per decade.

Therefore, a 60s lwt, sooner than later, should do 1:55 for a FM.

If I do my hwt 60s FM at 1:48 at the end of the month, I'll try to get to weight and do the same as a lighweight.

ranger

Well, I suppose you should call the Dreissigackers and tell them to change the WR records...
Your virtual argument prevails...

[ranger]

I wonder if ranger knows that "peak force" on the front end w/o sustaining the stroke all the way through until the release will not move a boat.

I have no problem sustaining my stroke through the finish.

ranger

[ranger]

wattage is area under the force curve

O.K.

So, show us the force curve of a stroke that you would use for a FM OTErg.

The area under my force curve, 1:48 @ 24 spm, comes out to be 11.5 SPI.

ranger

[mikvan52]

I wonder if ranger knows that "peak force" on the front end w/o sustaining the stroke all the way through until the release will not move a boat.

I have no problem sustaining my stroke through the finish.

ranger

The wave length of your force curve is short, Dick.