Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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Steve G
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Steve G » April 1st, 2011, 6:46 pm

ranger wrote:
mrfit wrote:The best ergers are not rowers at all
None of the ergers you listed can/could pull 6:28 at just shy of 53.

Then, once they pulled a WR, none of the ergers you listed could figure out how to get better.

I did the first _and_ the second, and am in the process of doing the second again, this time in a much larger way.

As far as I know, Watt, Brook, and Hastings are no longer race on the erg.

Siebach isn't even 53 and now pulls 6:35, ten seconds slower than he was a couple of years ago.

My goal is to pull 6:16 at 60, rowing well at low drag.

Simonsen just pulled 6:51 at 60, 35 seconds slower.

So, you're right.

If you want to be the best in this sport, you don't want to be a triathlete or cyclist.

You want to learn to row OTW, as I have.


You want to be a rower.

You want to learn row well.

Rowing is significantly technical and sport-specific, even indoor rowing.

ranger
But Rich
You can only row in a straight line, it has taken you years to achieve that !!

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 12:56 am

Byron Drachman wrote:Anchor hauling in a boat and mashing a high gear with square pedaling on a bike go hand in hand
There is abundant evidence that I was anchor-hauling on the erg for most of the ten years I have been rowing, but there is little evidence that I am anchor-hauling now.

As I mentioned, I have now learned to relax my shoulders and abs at the catch and keep my shoulders relaxed when I engage my lats and swing my back in the middle of the drive.

I have learned to sit up straight at the catch, to push straight back with my legs instead of diving at the catch and pulling up, and to set my heels and really accelerate the chain with my legs in the middle of the drive by standing up on the footplate and driving with my hams and gluts.

It would be interesting to see someone prove me wrong, but I don't think it is possible to row weil (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) at 95 df. anchor-hauling with your upper body at the catch, leading with your back and arms while neglecting your legs.

The levers in your upper body are too short and slow to generate enough force in any sort of natural way against such light resistance.

To row well at 95 df. in any sort of relaxed, natural way, you need to be long and quick, and you need to use all of your levers with good sequencing and timing, especially your legs, which are your longest and quickest levers.

At 95 df., if you neglect, weaken, mistime, or missequence any one of your levers, much less all of them, you can't get the job done.

At 95 df., if you neglect, weaken, mistime, or missequence your legs, you are _really_ in trouble.

Your stroking power falls, or you put yourself under the enormous, repetitive strain of trying to make up what you have lost in stroking power neglecting one part of your stroke by overdoing some other part of your stroke.

Rowing is just too repetitive for this sort of technical and skeletal-motor imbalance to be tolerable.

When you row any significant distance, you have to take too many strokes to be able to bear up under such mechanical strain.

Learning to row well is a pretty challenging affair, especially for a veteran.

But learning to row well at low drag is even more of a challenge.

As I demonstrated back in 2003, the most natural and comfortable way to anchor-haul is to jam the drag all the way up to max, and even so, for most purposes, I could only muster about 10 SPI in a comfortable way, which is still rowing _very_ badly.

As I struggled with for so many years between 2003 and the present, the _only_ way to anchor-haul and row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) is to jam the drag up to 10, but even so, this is only comfortable at pretty low rates.

When you are rowing well (13 SPI for lightweights, 16 SPI for heavyweights) and you raise the rate, the drive time at high drag is too long, the work you have to do on each drive is too much, and the recovery time is too brief to maintain the sort of efficiency you need to row substantial distances.

On the other hand, it just isn't possible to anchor-haul and row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) at 95 df.

It can't be done.

To row well at 95 df., you need to stop anchor-hauling and use the full length and quickness of your legs at the catch without engaging your core, back, and arms; and even so, later in the drive, you need to use the full length and quickness of your core, back, and arms, too, when you finally engage these levers. You can't get the job done just with your legs, either, or even predominantly with your legs, neglecting, weakening, mistiming, or missequencing your other levers.

I am now do all of my meters, at all rates and paces, very comfortably, rowing well at 95 df.

So I am no longer anchor-hauling.

I think the only time I would put up the drag now is for a 500m trial.

Given my short levers, I have a hard time pulling along naturally at 1:20, or whatever, at 95 df.

I just can't move my levers quickly enough to do it comfortably.

I have no problem with 95 df. at rates and paces up to 1:30 @ 40 (12 SPI), etc., though, and so that makes rowing at 95 df. fine for most purposes.

I'll be interested to see how my erging affects my rowing OTW, but I suspect that if I no longer anchor-haul OTErg, I will no longer anchor-haul OTW, either.

I can't imagine why I would switch back to anchor-hauling when I get back in my boat in a couple of weeks and start rowing 20K a day OTW.

Anyway, if I do, I am now fully aware of what it entails and what to do to avoid it.

I no longer do it on the erg.

ranger

P.S. Byron, you know these things well, because you are aware of what you need to row well--but you can't do it. As with most things, it is easier said/known than done. This is nothing to feel bad about, though. You have a lot of good company. No veteran has ever rowed well, much less rowed well at 95 df.
Last edited by ranger on April 2nd, 2011, 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 1:30 am

Steve G wrote:You can only row in a straight line
No.

I can steer just fine.

I just need to practice steering (1) at race speeds (2) down head courses I am unfamiliar with.

I can do this in training to some extent, but I will probably only master this fully by doing a lot of head races.

Good steering down an unfamiliar head course, I suspect, only comes with experience.

And even the most experienced head racers, I suspect, are better at steering courses they are familiar with than courses that haven't rowed before.

In head racing, I suspect that there is a significant "home course advantage."

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by snowleopard » April 2nd, 2011, 2:44 am

ranger wrote:I no longer do it on the erg.
You do. As the BIRC video shows. And no it wasn't a long time ago it was seven years into your improvement program.

And btw, you haven't posted any, any, meaningful result, i.e., 2K and up, that demonstrates that you row well according to your own deluded description to which no one who knows anything about rowing subscribes.

p.s. Just what is the point of posting 1000 words of meaningless garbage to this thread?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 2:53 am

Yea.

As Matthias has demonstrated, if you row well at low drag, an effective and efficient FM stroke is the same strength but somewhat longer and lower in rate than 10 MPS, top-end UT1, the stroke you use to 60min and a HM.

For me, this FM stroke seems to be 27 spm, base pace, which at 11.5 SPI, 1.5 SPI below rowing well, 13 SPI, is 1:44.

Pretty much like Matthias, then, at 95 df., it looks like I will want to train myself to rate 27 spm for a FM.

Hey!

That would be exciting, no?

That's 4 seconds per 500m faster than my goal, 1:48/2:32.

That's 2:26:40.

Wow.

That's pretty good.


Event Record Age Name Wt. Gender Country Season Verification*
42195 2:25:47.6 32 Thorsten Jonischkeit H M GER 2006 Historical record*
42195 2:26:40.1 45 Antti Varis H M FIN 2006 2006 Kunto Championships
42195 2:28:13.7 21 Alan Geweke H M USA 2001 Historical record*
42195 2:29:56.7 38 Matthias Auer L M GER 2010 2010 Scottish IRC
42195 2:30:29.8 27 Jesper Jensen L M DEN 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:31:55.9 50 Rob Slocum H M USA 2000 Historical record*
42195 2:34:18.3 18 Jason Kopelman H M USA 2011 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:35:30.0 46 Bob Eldridge L M USA 2004 Historical record*
42195 2:37:04.8 52 Greg Trahar L M GBR 2010 2010 Dutch ErgoMarathon Championships
42195 2:39:55.6 62 TJ Oesterling H M USA 2011 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:44:06.3 18 Ben Perry L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 2:47:45.7 64 Malcolm Fawcett L M GBR 2005 Historical record*
42195 2:58:38.5 74 Roger Bangay L M GBR 2011 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:01:41.6 70 Peter Daniels H M GBR 2010 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:15:52.2 82 Robert Spenger H M USA 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
42195 3:18:52.3 81 Robert Spenger L M USA 2006 Historical record*
42195 3:32:22.2 12 Joshua Burton-Prateley L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code

ranger
Last edited by ranger on April 2nd, 2011, 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 2:55 am

snowleopard wrote:You do. As the BIRC video shows
I learned to loosen up my shoulders and abs at the catch after BIRC.

That's what also let me lower the drag to 95 df. with no loss in stroking power but considerable gain in other matters (ratio, length, quickness, timing, sequencing, etc.).

I'll post another video rowing well now at 95 df. with my FM stroke, 1:44 @ 27 spm (11.5 SPI), and you can check it out.

As I explained, I couldn't row well easily and smoothly at 95 df., as I do now, if I were still anchor-hauling.

I'm not.

Sorry to say so, but Mike VB must be the one who is anchor-hauling, as we saw in his 500m video, not me.

Mike pulls 1:54 @ 27 spm (9 SPI), not 1:44.

That's wretched rowing.

He is missing a good distance stroke for a lightweight (11.5 SPI) by 2.5 SPI, which at 27 spm, is 67.5 watts, 10 seconds per 500m.

Mike has also lost quite a bit of aerobic capacity with age, so he couldn't rate that 27 spm for a FM, either, even rowing badly.

I suspect Mike would have a hard time pulling 2:00 for a FM.

Because of his poor aerobic capacity, even rowing badly at 9 SPI, for a FM, Mike would have to drop the rate to 22 spm.

Mike has a lot of company!

Everybody!

2:00/2:48 is the 60s lwt FM WR.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 3:30 am

At this late date, Mike VB can't do anything about his loss of aerobic capacity with age.

Spilt milk, I'm afraid.

But it is forever puzzling to me why Mike doesn't just row well on the erg as he does on the water.

He must have some psychological block against it or something.

I suspect it might be his skittishness about his loss of aerobic capacity.

Given his reduced aerobic capacity, if he rowed well, Mike would have to reduce his ratings _waaaay_ below most other folks.

For instance, if he pulled 12 SPI in a 2K, trading just a little rate for pace, he'd have to reduce his rate to 25 spm, as he does OTW in a 2K.

That would be quite a blow to his ego, I think.

He has certain illusions he needs to maintain.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 4:08 am

If someone can show me how to row well (13 SPI for lightweights, 16 SPI for heavyweights) in a relaxed and efficient way, anchor-hauling at 95 df., I would be delighted to see it.

Given my sports background in canoeing and swimming, I would be great at it.

Unfortunately, I don't think it can be done.

What do you think?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 4:18 am

Deleted due to factual inaccuracies.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » April 2nd, 2011, 5:11 am

ranger wrote:
Steve G wrote:You can only row in a straight line
No.

I can steer just fine.

I just need to practice steering (1) at race speeds (2) down head courses I am unfamiliar with.

I can do this in training to some extent, but I will probably only master this fully by doing a lot of head races.

Good steering down an unfamiliar head course, I suspect, only comes with experience.

And even the most experienced head racers, I suspect, are better at steering courses they are familiar with than courses that haven't rowed before.

In head racing, I suspect that there is a significant "home course advantage."

ranger
This is funny. There's definitely an advantage to knowing the course well. An experienced rower can make up for a lot of that by being able to read a river. But both of these are about the tactical work of staying out of (or in) the current, smoothing out bends, etc. None of it is relevant to not ramming an eight. Being able to steer well enough to avoid a 60 foot long shell on the other side of the river is about as basic as it gets. I'd go so far as to say that not ramming an eight was one of the first lessons I learned. My memory is a little hazy, but I think it came after where to put your feet in the shell, but before not sharpening the handle of your oar and jabbing your team mates with it.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 5:26 am

PaulH wrote:Being able to steer well enough to avoid a 60 foot long shell on the other side of the river is about as basic as it gets
Before my race in Grand Rapids, I had never rowed my 1x on any official course or anywhere near an eight coming in the other direction.

In fact, besides a couple of times over seven years, I had never rowed my 1x on a body of water where there was any other shell of any kind, much less an eight.

Grand Rapids last year was also my first OTW rowing race in a shell of any kind.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2011, 5:35 am

snowleopard wrote:And btw, you haven't posted any, any, meaningful result, i.e., 2K and up, that demonstrates that you row well
Sure, you need to learn a stroke and use it before you race with it.

The FM trial that I am training for now will be my first race rowing at 95 df.

When I get around to it, it looks as though I will try to hold 1:44 @ 27 spm (11.5 SPI) for the 42K.

Base Pace

3.5-to-1 ratio

This 1:44 is ten seconds per 500m better than my FM pb of 1:54 from ten years ago.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » April 2nd, 2011, 6:26 am

I see nine ranger posts on the screen this am. They all appear like this :

This post was made by ranger who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.


In my old age, I'm getting lazy. I just don't want to read all these posts w/o content. Other readers will find items with which we can nit pick. I still enjoy reading them. So... I will not bother to
" Display th(e) post(s) "
myself.....

Also, this morning, I'm looking at the calendar for the month of April. There are, as I see it, four weeks, four Saturday's left for ranger to choose from to row his marathon. IMO: That's way too little time for the lil ol' procrastinator of Ann Arbor. Nothin' doin' there either.

Shortly, he'll switch to another goal. Another perennial replay will occur:
We'll be hearing about the wonders of Door County again and how he's going to erg every morning before he hits the water and how he's going to win the Head of the Charles. What a prescription for failure! Talk and nothing else.
IMO: He needs OTW technique coaching and definitely needs a sabbatical from the C2...
I should drop any focus on this too as you
Can't teach an old dog ...nothin' :roll:

I wonder if he'll dare to show his face at an OTW head race this year... Doubtful!
(Yawn...)
Who will be the person he lamely attempts to insult today?.....
Which fractured fairy-tales will he fabricate about physics and physiology... We've seen them all many times before.

This thread is doomed. The "boring" quotient is getting huge... and I see I'm become a part of the problem... (sigh)
Why even comment on an old guy who rows a 7:00 erg?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Citroen » April 2nd, 2011, 6:46 am

Since you didn't want to answer this one, I'll post it again.
ranger wrote: My bike is stuck in a light gear, much too light for my liking.
Is it the front mech or the rear mech that's stuck?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by snowleopard » April 2nd, 2011, 7:23 am

Citroen wrote:Since you didn't want to answer this one, I'll post it again.
ranger wrote: My bike is stuck in a light gear, much too light for my liking.
Is it the front mech or the rear mech that's stuck?
Either way it's easy fixed. New cable just a few bucks or a new mech -- $30 or thereabouts.

Bike age is irrelevant. I rode 90 miles on my 20 yo Cannondale last weekend. After 1000s of miles it's still smooth and reliable. The headset and bottom bracket have never been replaced.

Locked