Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

This is an interesting race result from this year's Chicago venue:

Senior Men (heavyweight)

Joe Byrd Chicago Training Center 06:25.1
Michael Caviston Unaffiliated 06:36.7
Christopher Foltyn Lincoln Park Boat Club 06:57.1
Predrag Jovanovic Team Predrag 07:05.2
John Dybdal Chicago Rowing Union 07:18.4
Robert Osborne Unaffiliated 07:21.9
Thomas J. Smith Unaffiliated 07:23.8

Doesn't Mike C. live in San Diego?

Mike turns 50 next year, as I remember.

ranger

[ranger]

You define good technique (rowing well) in terms of SPI, which is defined by rate and pace. Therefore fluctuations in rate and pace match fluctuations in technique. The force curves for each stroke fluctuated correspondingly.

Say what?

Not at all.

By definition, the same SPI entails a whole range of different rates and paces, and given the same SPI, when rates change, paces change.

No, the force curves didn't fluctuate at all.

If there were fluctuations, it was in recovery time.

That isn't really a change in technique at all.

ranger

[ranger]

2 strokes to get going, then 1:34@31spm, 1:32@33, 1:34@30, 1:35@31, 1:35@31, 1:35@31, 1:35@32, 1:33@33, 1:33@32, 1:34@34, 1:34@32, 1:36@31, 1:34@32, 1:33@35, 1:33@34, stop. Grand total of 17 strokes, only 2 of which were actually 1:34@32.

So...

Amazingly consistent rowing.

Fastest pace, 1:32; slowest pace, 1:36.

Highest rate, 35 spm; lowest rate, 31 spm.

1:32 @ 35 spm is 13 SPI.

1:36 @ 31 spm is 13 SPI.

1:34 @ 32 spm is 13 SPI.

Etc.

As I said, watch the force curve.

That tells the story.

The same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same, the same.

ranger

[ranger]

What's your best 1k OTW or on the erg in the last 5 years?

As I have repeated endlessly, I haven't been training to race.

I have been working on my weaknesses, learning to row.

My target for 1K OTErg is 3:00.

My pb is 3:07, but that was rowing poorly (10 SPI) at max drag.

Do as many 1K trials as you would like, Mike, but it won't help you row 3:00 for 1K OTErg.

To row 3:00 for 1K OTErg, you would need to row better than you do.

In fact, you would have to row _very well_ indeed (e.g., 13 SPI).

Doing 1K trials doesn't have anything to do with improving your technique.

In fact, 1K trials do just the opposite.

They encourage you to break down your technique, trade rate for pace, and row poorly.

Training in this way, year after year, just makes you worse and worse.

You don't train that way OTW.

What do you train that way OTErg?

ranger

[macroth]

2 strokes to get going, then 1:34@31spm, 1:32@33, 1:34@30, 1:35@31, 1:35@31, 1:35@31, 1:35@32, 1:33@33, 1:33@32, 1:34@34, 1:34@32, 1:36@31, 1:34@32, 1:33@35, 1:33@34, stop. Grand total of 17 strokes, only 2 of which were actually 1:34@32.

So...

Amazingly consistent rowing.

Fastest pace, 1:32; slowest pace, 1:36.

Highest rate, 35 spm; lowest rate, 31 spm.

You call that amazingly consistent??? Over a measly 15 strokes?? Now I get it, your standards are low. Just like everything you claim to do (erging -ratios, rate, pace, SPI, HR-, extension pressups, etc.), close enough is good enough in your own mind.

Btw, your SPI math is off as well, your SPI wasn't constant. Sure, your force curves were pretty similar, just like you sort of rowed 1:34@32spm for just under 200m, with a HR going a bit over 150 and counting, just like you row "20K", "working with" whatever, jut like you've been performing "at WR pace", just like your weight is "fine" for a lightweight, and so on and so forth. Almost, maybe, I think I will, if if if if, sure, "tomorrow", "in the fall".

You're an approximation of an athlete, and an approximation of an honest man.

[jliddil]

What's your OTW MPS RIch over 8k?

Hard to say, given the ice on the Huron River.

My thermometer said below zero F. this morning.

ranger

Really?
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/fin ... MI%2048103

[macroth]

We now have rangerweather, where sub-0 Celsius is the same as sub-0 Farenheit. I once wrote here that when ranger says the sun is shining, you should bring an umbrella. I didn't realize how true that is!

[hjs]

Michael Caviston Unaffiliated 06:36.7

ranger

And you got a 7.02, I will do the math for you , that's 26 seconds slower dangy boy..............

[ranger]

I understand that you have plenty of excuses (tired, etc.), but this is not "solid and relaxed" 1:34@32spm erging, even though it averages out to that. Varying your rate and pace like that is very inefficient erging, especially at higher speeds

I am not sure why slight fluctuations in rate and pace are inefficient, given a constant drive and force curve, but perhaps you can explain.

I would also be interested in seeing a video from you, say, of your PM4, as you row 500m, 1:34 @ 32 spm (13 SPI)., with all 50 strokes right on 1:34 @ 32 spm. Include HR, too.

Show me how it's done.

I will be especially interested in watching your force curve.

Tomorrow, I'll post a video of my monitor as I do 500m, 1:34 @ 32 spm.

But I certainly don't have any interest at all in making all strokes exactly 1:34 @ 32 spm (13 SPI).

I'll just have an interest in keeping my technique together for the 50 strokes.

As I mentioned, I will also have an interest in keeping my HR below 175 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

We now have rangerweather, where sub-0 Celsius is the same as sub-0 Farenheit. I once wrote here that when ranger says the sun is shining, you should bring an umbrella. I didn't realize how true that is!

No, my thermometer is fahrenheit.

On my back porch this morning, by my thermometer, it was zero fahrenheit.

ranger

[ranger]

What's your OTW MPS RIch over 8k?

Hard to say, given the ice on the Huron River.

My thermometer said below zero F. this morning.

ranger

Really?
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/fin ... MI%2048103

Yep.

Cold and clear at night.

Brilliant sun and warmer during the day.

Officially, it got down to 8 degrees F.

But we live outside of town, next to the river, and it seems to be consistently colder out here.

History for Ann Arbor, MI

Monday, March 7, 2011

Actual Average Record Temperature

Max Temperature 27 °F 35 °F 50 °F (2005)
Min Temperature 8 °F 19 °F 3 °F (2003)

This is pretty much record cold weather for March 7th.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Let’s examine the pap:

“Do as many 1K trials as you would like, Mike, but it won't help you row 3:00 for 1K OTErg.

To row 3:00 for 1K OTErg, you would need to row better than you do.”

And... your goal, Rich, is a 3:00 1k?

To even entertain this as a real question we’d have to assume that ranger thinks it’s possible for a dehydrated old man (60+ under 165 lbs) can erg at 1:30 pace for 1k..

Let’s take a closer look..
The current 60 to 64 lwt 1k WR is…

1000
3:14.4
60
Mark Thomas
L
M
USA
2011
PM3/PM4 verification code


381 watts…
To which our wonder boy proposes…
Oh.. I’ll do a 3:00 1k…(shock value) at a whopping 480 watts..

This states quite clearly that “lwt” ranger feels that he is 99/381 (26% ) stronger than the current WR holder.

Have at, Rich!



Then there’s this gem:

“Tomorrow, I'll post a video of my monitor as I do 500m, 1:34 @ 32 spm.”

… at what weight?? 85 kg? which Zone ? (HIGH AT?) & at what df ?? 140???
Any one notice??
Gone is the 10 by 2k /23 spm/UT brag. He wants to sub-in this monstrosity … high rate/ higher drag/ higher heart rate/short distance.

Rich: You don't need a video of the monitor… Let’s see the bod’ bro’ on the v-d-oh!
You can IND_V it!!!! You can rank it!!!

What will the new claim be tomorrow? He’ll move on to new claims because .... (stay tuned.....)

[ranger]

at what weight?

We have right about the same non-fat body mass, Mike.

Unless I am training for a lightweight race, I just have more fat.

On the erg, fat doesn't make you faster or slower.

OTW, it makes you slower.

It is no advantage whatsoever OTW or OTErg, and in my case, no barrier to racing as a lightweight, if I buckle down and lose it.

I make weight at 10% body fat.

ranger

[ranger]

You don't need a video of the monitor

Sure I do.

That's the cool part.

Your force curve, pace, rate, and heart rate.

Your effectiveness and efficiency.

ranger

[ranger]

And... your goal, Rich, is a 3:00 1k?

To even entertain this as a real question we’d have to assume that ranger thinks it’s possible for a dehydrated old man (60+ under 165 lbs) can erg at 1:30 pace for 1k..

Let’s take a closer look..
The current 60 to 64 lwt 1k WR is…

1000
3:14.4
60
Mark Thomas
L
M
USA
2011
PM3/PM4 verification code


381 watts…
To which our wonder boy proposes…
Oh.. I’ll do a 3:00 1k…(shock value) at a whopping 480 watts..

This states quite clearly that “lwt” ranger feels that he is 99/381 (26% ) stronger than the current WR holder.

Have at, Rich!

Yep.

3:00 is my goal for 1K.

That's Castellan's hwt 60s WR.

Of course, if I reach my goals this year, I'll also set the 60s hwt 2K WR.

Event Record Age Name Wt. Gender Country Season Verification*
1000 2:39.6 25 Jose Luis Sanz Ortega H M ESP 2005 Historical record*
1000 2:41.9 33 Pavel Surmei H M FIN 2009 2009 ALFA
1000 2:50.3 44 Juri Jaanson H M FIN 2009 2009 ALFA
1000 2:53.9 18 Ryan Ng Yan Liang H M SGP 2010 Witnessed at Public Club
1000 2:54.0 50 John Grady H M USA 2011 PM3/PM4 verification code
1000 2:56.7 23 Daniel Teoli L M USA 2011 Witnessed at Public Club
1000 2:57.0 13 Dan Warren L M USA 2000 Historical record*
1000 2:57.8 32 Dan Staite L M GBR 2006 PM3/PM4 verification code
1000 2:59.0 46 Kent Timm L M USA 2005 Historical record*
1000 3:00.0 60 James Castellan H M USA 2005 Historical record*
1000 3:03.3 50 Steven Geary L M NZL 2008 2007 Australasian Games
1000 3:14.4 60 Mark Thomas L M USA 2011 PM3/PM4 verification code
1000 3:19.9 70 Paul Guest H M AUS 2010 Witnessed at Public Club
1000 3:25.2 11 Bob Sukolsky H M USA 2003 Historical record*
1000 3:27.7 12 Marian Uroic L M HRV 2004 Historical record*
1000 3:29.1 70 Roger Bangay L M GBR 2008 Witnessed at Public Club
1000 3:42.8 80 Marinus Geradus Boon H M NZL 2009 2009 New Zealand Masters Games
1000 3:47.2 80 Dean Smith L M USA 2007 PM3/PM4 verification code
1000 5:43.2 90 Jack Mathieson H M AUS 2008 2007 Australasian Masters Games

ranger