Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

it really has nothing of substance about ranger's training

Not true at all.

I have been talking about my training continuously, in great detail, both here and elsewhere, for almost a decade now.

Training is an opportunity to get better.

I have been using my training time to improve my technique.

It is interesting to hear that you think that this thread has become more about Mike's training than mine.

How so?

Things like 500m trials don't have anything to do with training.

They are races.

What would be interesting to hear from Mike VB is not the results of 500m trials well off of his pb, but how he is training, or might be training, in order to improve on his 500m pb of 1:30 (give or take).

Given that Mike's fitness is declining, I would guess that this would be have to be something that he is doing with technique.

I am not sure that Mike's 10 x 2K (1 minute rest) session has much to do with his training, either.

As far as I can tell, it , and a bunch of things like it (e.g., 20K, 2 x 10K, 4 x 5K, 40 x 500m, 20 x 1K, ), are not things that Mike usually does.

Like rowing itself, wherever it is substantial, training is habitual.

It isn't a one-time performance (i.e., a race).

If Mike were interested in using the 10 x 2K (1 minute rest) session to get better, then he would have to do it every day, or every second or third day, on a regular basis.

If he did that, I am sure that he would find a steady improvement from his modest 1:58 to something more respectable.

ranger

[ranger]

I accept the challenge. Post a video of you doing 50 jackknives, 30 pull-ups, and 25 extension press-ups and I will do the same after I see your video.

O.K.

Let's do them one at a time.

I'll do one.

Then you do one.

Etc.

For me, the 50 jackknives are easiest.

The 25 extension press ups are harder.

The 30 pull ups are _very_ hard.

So it might make sense to do them in that order.

If we do it this way, others could join in, too.

ranger

[atklein90]

Now you're gonna call Mike VB out? For averaging 1:58?

YOU DIDN'T EVEN DO THE WORKOUT LOSER! Much less post any evidence of any workout for the past year!

Why don't you show us a screen shot of your "steamrolling" sessions? Why not even 500m of it? My guess would be you won't show anything, because you can't come anywhere near it!

Fake.

[ranger]

Now you're gonna call Mike VB out? For averaging 1:58?

YOU DIDN'T EVEN DO THE WORKOUT LOSER! Much less post any evidence of any workout for the past year!

Why don't you show us a screen shot of your "steamrolling" sessions? Why not even 500m of it? My guess would be you won't show anything, because you can't come anywhere near it!

Fake.

Not much reason to post the results of rowing 10 x 2K, 1:58 @ 23 spm (1 minute rest).

That's just a lot of bad (9.3 SPI) low rate (23 spm) rowing, and with lots of rests to boot!

The average pace for the 20K, low UT1 session is 2:13.

ranger

[luckylindy]

Hey, Mike.

Can you do 10 MPS @ 34 spm, 1:28 pace?

Here, I took a slap at it but couldn't quite get it done.

I'll have to try it again now.

1:28 @ 34 spm (10 MPS) is 15.7 SPI.



ranger

This is from 2007 ... any recent pics?

[luckylindy]

95 df.

As I mentioned earlier, I think a good part of the trick of learning to use your legs effectively happens at the footplate.

You need to _very_ fast in order to shift all of your weight from (your toes and) the balls of your feet, to your heels, and then back to (your toes and) the balls of your feet, all in the first .2 seconds of the drive, as you drive with your quads, and then your hams&gluts, and then your calves/abs/etc., as you swing your back.

Notice where the peak comes in this force curve, rowing at 95 df.

The peak of this force curve comes when I drive down with the balls of my feet and point my toes as I swing my back.

The whole drive is only .5 seconds long.

Half the screen is .6 seconds.

ranger

I'm actually impressed that you posted a more recent pic. That looks more like it for a low drag force curve ... slower SPM, slightly shorter drive time, slower pace. This still begs the previous question - how do you expect to maintain the same drive time and same SPI as your spm increases? Physically, the only way this is possible is if your drive length increases as well (i.e. you magically get taller). Otherwise, in order to maintain a constant SPI with increasing spm, your drive time would need to shorten considerably.

[Flipper21]

Folks

What is so hard to comprehend here!

Ranger = LIAR

Ranger = BS

Ranger = woteva

What is so hard to comprehend you dolt's! Cureton is spinning you lot and its pure entertainment to watch all of YOU trying to make some sense of this LIAR.

Beggars belief. What a load of ........................ Just to remind you............

Cureton = LIAR

[Citroen]

I'm actually impressed that you posted a more recent pic. That looks more like it for a low drag force curve ... slower SPM, slightly shorter drive time, slower pace. This still begs the previous question - how do you expect to maintain the same drive time and same SPI as your spm increases? Physically, the only way this is possible is if your drive length increases as well (i.e. you magically get taller). Otherwise, in order to maintain a constant SPI with increasing spm, your drive time would need to shorten considerably.

You're missing the fact that in Rangerland there's a completely different Rangerphysics, Rangerphysiology and Rangermath. Those sciences bear no relation to anything in your universe. They are the product of his complete inability to tell anything truthful, to comprehend anything mechanical and to understand simple sports medicine like heart rate drift.

In Rangerland if you need to get magically taller to make the SPI equations work, then so be it, you're getting magically taller.

Byron is the expert on calling out Ranger on his inconsistencies.

[ranger]

'm actually impressed that you posted a more recent pic. That looks more like it for a low drag force curve ... slower SPM, slightly shorter drive time, slower pace. This still begs the previous question - how do you expect to maintain the same drive time and same SPI as your spm increases? Physically, the only way this is possible is if your drive length increases as well (i.e. you magically get taller). Otherwise, in order to maintain a constant SPI with increasing spm, your drive time would need to shorten considerably.

True.

As I mentioned, 95 df. is to low for racing, at least for me.

I'll race at 120 df.

95 df. might be just fine for a FM, though.

Similarly, for me, 120 df. is too low for a 500m trial.

I like to do 500m trials on max drag.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Hey, Mike.

Can you do 10 MPS @ 34 spm, 1:28 pace?

Here, I took a slap at it but couldn't quite get it done.

I'll have to try it again now.

1:28 @ 34 spm (10 MPS) is 15.7 SPI.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9368/dsc00260oe1.jpg

ranger

This is from 2007 ... any recent pics?

and he was in heavyweight range when he did this...

Why only 400m?

[ranger]

Why only 400m?

I didn't succeed.

15.7 SPI was a little too much.

At the time, 1:31 @ 33 spm (15 SPI) was the best I could do for 500m on the 10MPS ladder.

I got pretty close to 1:28 @ 34 spm (15.7 SPI), though.

Give it a try.

See what you can get.

I like these 500s @ 10MPS because any new speed you get in this exercise has to be earned with improvements in technique/stroking power.

Can you do 1:40 @ 30 spm (11.7 SPI)?

1:37 @ 31 spm (12.4 SPI)?

ranger

[mikvan52]

Gus:
You have to remember .. this was my fourth day back after a long layoff...
I know it was bad rowing.

I knew it was after only 4 days back at training. Frankly I think it's sheer lunacy to do an all-out 500 on only 4 days of training after coming back from any substantial time off especially if it's related to injury. I wonder why anybody would risk the stress on their body.

I also wonder about the excuse of it only being the fourth day back after a long layoff as a valid explanation of the poor rowing form. I wouldn't think your form would deteriorate that much if at all. Does your form then substantially improve as you regain your fitness? I've said it before and still think that poor rowing form on the erg is not that important if it helps you go faster on the erg. However, for someone who says that the erg is only a tool for training for OTW, why would you do anything like this on the erg?

#1: I am a lunatic
#2: Lunatics row the erg year after year after year
#3: The nature of my injury has to do (mostly) with arthritis... So it is not primarily muscular. I now fear I may need surgery. Rest did not help at all.
#4: The bad form I have has been with me a long time and has been hard to eradicate
#5: Feedback is so poor on the erg that I have a had time gauging how I'm doing in that regard
#6: You make a great point about achievement of PB erg times... "Cheating" your form helps. It seems I cannot resist.
Just look at what I had t do to beat Roy Brook at Crash-B..(a video is referenced on the heading of my blog page)=> very poor rowing form. My race plan called for a win. I did the equivalent of what people on the track do: Throw themselves at the finish line (poor running form)
#7: My coach wants me to give up the erg altogether but as I live in a cold climate and cannot get enough water time I accept the need to erg to keep my hand in play. Plus+++ I'm a competitive type... perhaps too much so.
IOW: See #1

BTW: I took a video of today's 500m that seems to have made ranger quite jealous. I can tell he's jealous because he's devoting so much focus on discrediting me... Saying that 500TTs are "ruinous".. He's just jealous, being the sort who refuses to TT. He can't show his chops because he doesn't have any as a lwt... But he should be justifiably proud of how fast he is. 7:02 is a great time for a 60-something retiree.

I set out to row a 1:32 500m this afternoon. I made it. I tied to hold the rate down and did for a while. I then trashed the end of the piece. I should have had better self-control.

Rich: Do not worry: I won't hijack your thread. If you tell me to not post todays' video here, I won't
But you're always asking for such things... Very contradictory!

Why have you stopped taking pictures/videos of what you are actually doing on the erg these days? Does it have to do with your getting so much older and slower? We're both in the same boat here I hope you are able to get over it as I have.

BTW:
I'm still waiting for the completion of the assignment you set for yourself:
10x2k/1:00r / 23 spm / below AT / wearing your Suunto/ reporting you weight and drag factor....
Any progress there? Are you sick o do you have some other infirmity?
Remember: I only did the workout because you challenged me! Then, adorable cuddly sweetheart that you are, you backed down...
A familiar pattern.
And, guess what?
I don't care.. (SEE #1)
I cherish the remote prospect of rowing against you in Boston 2 years from now...

[mikvan52]

Why only 400m?

15.7 SPI was a little too much.

(15 SPI) was the best I could do f...



Give it a try.

....stroking power.

Ah yes "stroking power" training .. the rotted keystone in the bridge to ranger stardom:
Every rower needs to intimately know that he has the speed necessary to win.

Rich.. SPI ...It's a fake measure.....
NO ONE TRAINS ON watts/spm as an arbiter... Low rate rowing? (yes) high watt rowing? (YES) both together at UT ? (NEVER)
THEY TRAIN FOR SUSTAINED WATT PRODUCTION.
A huge percentage of this involves easy stuff.

wake-up call...

..... It's all troll poo-poo.. Ask any authority...(not me) How about your brother KIRK?... who wouldn't steer you wrong.

You're a millionaire... spend a dime... give him a call ... He'll explain how power gets you to the finish line first. Not how many strokes you took

Once again: It's a shame you've wasted so many years on this dead end... I feel sorry for you.

[leadville]

fellow observers -

there's ZERO evidence that rangerboy is doing ANY erging at all. He's said - repeatedly - he's going to post evidence yet he hasn't been able to take a snapshot of the pdm at the end of any of workout. So, he isn't doing any.

And there's LOTSA evidence that he isn't - see his recent handle down, DNS, and 7.02 results.

therefore, shall we rename this thread?

ranger's delusional rants?

[ranger]

Rich.. SPI ...It's a fake measure.....
NO ONE TRAINS ON watts/spm as an arbiter... Low rate rowing? (yes) high watt rowing? (YES) both together at UT ? (NEVER)
THEY TRAIN FOR SUSTAINED WATT PRODUCTION.
A huge percentage of this involves easy stuff.

(1) No, stroking power is not a fake measure. It is just a measure of how and when you are rowing well or poorly, holding your technique together or giving it up for other purposes. Sure, to go fast OTErg in some situations you don't have to row well or hold your technique together. But my argument here, and hope overall, is that rowing well, on the whole, is faster than rowing poorly. And, honestly, I can't think of anything that would argue otherwise. If it turns out that this isn't the case, so be it. But I am giving it a shot.

(2) I don't see any reason at all not to do UT work rowing well. To do so, though, you need to do a lot of high power, low rate rowing to get used to rowing with a high stroking power. If you don't do this prep work (e.g., my RWBs routines), sure, rowing well at UT seems impossible, or at least, counterproductive.

(3) Sure, a lot of training involves easy stuff. For me, low UT1 work is easy, about as easy as I like to work in training. I only work more easily that that for special purposes, whatever those might be. My normal routine is to work at low UT1. I don't think that my preference here is odd at all. Low UT1 is right around pb FM pace. I suspect that athletes in many endurance sports prefer to do most of their work at low UT1.

(4) Sure, my exclusive concentration on technique and stroking power over the last few years is odd, but that is only a reflection of other oddnesses. In 2003, I had three straight WR rows and then my 2K times plateaued. I have been concentrating exclusively on technique and stroking power because I _can't_ improve my fitness. I work as hard as I can already. My fitness, such as it is, is maximal. On the other hand, back in 2003, my technique and stroking power was wretched. So it was something that I could improve. That's why I have been concentrating on it. It was my major weakness. Sure, for those whose fitness is weak, concentrating exclusively on technique and stroking power is not appropriate. Then again, it is also my general argument that many of the best ergers, especially ones who have been around the sport for several years, are in my situation exactly. They work just about as hard as they can, and after just a couple of years, their fitness is maximal. They _can't_ improve it. On the other hand, as you point out, a lot of the rowing done on the erg, especially by those who don't row OTW, is wretchedly ineffective and inefficient compared to what it could be. Yet, my argument is that none of the basic training plan for rowing, and none of the culture of the sport, points this out or provides ways of teaching those in this situation how to row well. My feeling is this: That's too bad. It is both faster and a pleasure to row well. Those who don't row well fall needlessly short of their potential in their racing, and while they are doing it, don't have as much fun or satisfaction from the process.

ranger