Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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mikvan52
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » February 18th, 2011, 6:34 pm

I needed an evening pick-me-upper so I searched "ranger" & "training complete"

Look at this one!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
He has been ready to race in his own words!
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... te#p117140

AND THIS WAS SEPT 2009!!!

The suspension of time continues! If we all remain patient we'll be guaranteed identical assertions in Sept 2011... AND=> no racing will take place.

Ah yes, Bliss!! ranger you are reliable and steady. Please continue fueling the void with your lies....

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 18th, 2011, 7:34 pm

goblin wrote:So where is your evidence of world class milers that are doing fast marathons in preparation for the olympics?
Rowing isn't running.

It is primarily skeletal-muscular and technical, not aeorbic.

It is only secondarily aerobic.

In rowing, the one with best best stroke wins.

A good stroke is developed by rowing at low rates over long distances (such as a FM), working on technique (effectiveness and efficiency).

No one ever got better at rowing by doing a lot of sprinting.

In rowing, you are only as good as your FM @ 22 spm.

A FM @ 22 spm is done at 2K + 14.

In rowing, the one who is best for 2K is also best for 42K (and vice versa).

ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 18th, 2011, 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 18th, 2011, 7:45 pm

goblin wrote: I don't question your genetic and physiological propensity to get back to world record shape
That hasn't been my goal.

My goal has been to get a dozen seconds better.

This goal has had nothing to do with improving my fitness.

My fitness has been maximal for a decade.

It has had to do with improving my rowing.

All of the basic training plans for rowing focus on fitness.

None of them say anything about how to get better at rowing.

Besides me, no male WR-holder, 40-70, has ever gotten better.

They have just gotten worse and worse.

I am going to break that trend.

When I pull a lwt 6:16 at 60, I'll be a dozen seconds better over 2K almost a decade after my WR rows back in 2003.

The normal decline with age from 50 to 60 is 17 seconds over 2K.

So, if I succeed, the swing in times, given the focus of my training on technique rather than fitness, will be close to a half a minute over 2K.

Given that I pulled a lwt 6:30 when I set the 50s lwt at WIRC 2003, if I had followed traditional training plans, with their focus on fitness rather than technique, the prediction is that I will pull a lwt 6:47 2K at WIRC 2013.

My goal this spring is to pull 1:42 @ 26 spm for 10K, not 2K.

13 SPI, 3.6-to-1 ratio, 119 df.

"Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy"

10K is done at 2K + 8.

Most 60s lwts pull 9 SPI.

They no longer row well (13 SPI).

They miss it by almost 50%.

Therefore, to pull 1:42, they have to rate 37 spm in something close to a 1-to-1 ratio.

That's a pretty tough slog to maintain for 34min/10K.

26 spm in a 3.6-to-1 ratio is something else entirely.

In 2003, I could only pull 1:42 for 4K, but that's largely because I had to rate 33 spm to do it.

I didn't row well.

I rowed at max drag and only pulled 10 SPI.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 18th, 2011, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

MRapp
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by MRapp » February 18th, 2011, 8:21 pm

MRapp wrote:
ranger wrote:How you get better once you are a Senior or Veteran WR-holder is another matter entirely.

So far, I am the only one to do it.

And even so, just working on my fitness, my times plateaued in 2003.

So, I have had to improve my technique in order to get better yet.

That task is complete.

Fait accompli.

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (119 df.).

So I am again just preparing to race.

ranger
You've gotten better? Prove it. You are a 7:00 2k erger until one of two things happen. First, you race faster than 7:00 for 2k. Second, you post a workout indicating you could do a 2k faster than 7:00. With your supposed fitness you could bang out a number of workouts any day of the week that would show 6:40 2k ability. Hell, you could just sit down and pull 6:40 without much effort just to show us that you are not a complete and utter fraud. Or the easiest way of all? Simply take a screenshot of the daily erg session as you normally do it. If it says what you claim it says, we all have to shut our mouth and acknowledge you are as good as you say. So to think you could put all of us in our place with a single click of a camera, yet you don't do it, what does that say?

I could come on here and make 25 posts a day about being able to pull sub 6:00. Until I show something of substance indicating that it's a possibility people will call me a pathetic liar. Sound familiar?
You successfully buried this one already...any response other than your typical "riding your cowboy", "I will soon do...." bullshit? By the way, I really like that song and now you've ruined it for me. Thank you very little.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 18th, 2011, 8:31 pm

MRapp wrote:You've gotten better?
As a WR-holder?

Yes.

Fait accompli.

I broke Tardieu's 50s lwt WR (6:31.6) at WIRC 2003, pulling 6:30.

Then I rowed strapless, at low rates and 120 df., for six months (March-August 2003), working on technique, trying to learn how to use my legs.

Then I sharpened.

In October of 2003, I broke my own WR by a second, pulling 6:29, albeit still rowing badly at high drag.

Then in November, I broke my own WR by another second, pulling 6:28.

In recent times, no other male WR-holder, 40-70, has ever gotten better.

They have just gotten worse and worse.

6:28 was pretty much a limit, though, back in 2003, given my bad technique, rowing at high drag.

So, I bought a boat, rowed OTW in the summer, quit racing on the erg in the winter, and spent all of my training time at low rates, working on stroking power, learning how to row well.

Fait accompli again.

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (119 df.).

So, I am again preparing to race.

The best preparation for the 2K is done from the top down, from the FM to the HM to 60min to 10K to 30min, to 6K, to 5K, to anaerobic intervals and the sprints (1K and 500m) to the 2K.

So, that is what I am doing now.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 18th, 2011, 8:46 pm

MRapp wrote:You are a 7:00 2k erger until one of two things happen. First, you race faster than 7:00 for 2k. Second, you post a workout indicating you could do a 2k faster than 7:00. With your supposed fitness you could bang out a number of workouts any day of the week that would show 6:40 2k ability. Hell, you could just sit down and pull 6:40 without much effort just to show us that you are not a complete and utter fraud. Or the easiest way of all? Simply take a screenshot of the daily erg session as you normally do it. If it says what you claim it says, we all have to shut our mouth and acknowledge you are as good as you say. So to think you could put all of us in our place with a single click of a camera, yet you don't do it, what does that say?
It says that I know how to train myself to get better--and you don't.

C'est dommage, but so it goes.

Improving your technique doesn't have anything to do with screenshots of sessions.

It has to do with correcting faults in your stroke, learning how to be more effective and efficient, how to do more work per stroke, given the same effort.

Sure, when I do it, I'll take a screen shot of the 10K I pull, 1:42 @ 26 spm (13 SPI, 119 df.), but that screenshot will have nothing to do with how I trained myself to get better.

It will just be the result of my improved technique.

BTW, when I get it done, the 10K, 1:42 @ 26 spm, will be a 60s hwt WR by a full minute, three seconds per 500m.

No 60s hwt has done 1:42 for 5K, much less 10K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by goblin » February 18th, 2011, 10:13 pm

ranger wrote:
goblin wrote:So where is your evidence of world class milers that are doing fast marathons in preparation for the olympics?


In rowing, the one who is best for 2K is also best for 42K (and vice versa).

ranger
Incorrect.

The one who is best for 2k has the potential to be best for 42k, and vice versa. They are still opposite pursuits.

Runners who are world class in the mile will race the 5k in their preparation for a fast mile. Rowers who are world class in the 2k will race 6-10k in their preparation for a fast 2k. In both cases, race effort marathons are counterproductive and a waste of time.

[Edit] If you don't like the running parallel, then answer me this: Why is it that breakaway specialists from the Tour de France, who can sustain immense wattages for hours, do not also see success in the 4000m individual pursuit (a 4 minute event) in track cycling? The way you talk, with a little sharpening, they'd win gold medals.

Hate to see you waste any more time on a wild goose chase. But hey, its your life. I'm not the one who has slowed down by 35 seconds since 2003.
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by MRapp » February 18th, 2011, 11:06 pm

I assumed I'd receive a cowardly response such as that. Enjoy tomorrow, drinking yourself into a stupor while your peers get ready to duel at Crash-B's.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by former lightweight » February 18th, 2011, 11:33 pm

Wanted to check in on the pre-CRASH-B activity, and WOW, Rich has really gone on a tear!

Rich, I just want to thank you... I've sent this thread to a bunch of my former OTW teammates and you've become a legend well outside the indoor rowing world. Remember, history is written by the victors, and things don't look so good for you at this point.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Carl Watts » February 19th, 2011, 4:07 am

former lightweight wrote:Wanted to check in on the pre-CRASH-B activity, and WOW, Rich has really gone on a tear!

Rich, I just want to thank you... I've sent this thread to a bunch of my former OTW teammates and you've become a legend well outside the indoor rowing world. Remember, history is written by the victors, and things don't look so good for you at this point.
Page 666 so I guess he thinks he has turned into a beast.......shame he is still a Weasel on the Erg.
Carl Watts.
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http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 19th, 2011, 4:13 am

goblin wrote:Why is it that breakaway specialists from the Tour de France, who can sustain immense wattages for hours, do not also see success in the 4000m individual pursuit (a 4 minute event) in track cycling?
Rowing isn't cycling.

The physiological cost of pulling a certain pace in rowing is always relative to the technical/skilled sequencing, timing, strength, coordination, quickness, flexibility, length, rhythmicity, relaxation, smoothness, precision, consistency, balance, etc., of the muscles doing the work and the nature of the resistance those muscles are working against in the machine, especially the quality and quantity of the time those muscles are working relative to resting, given that rowing is only intermittent work.

Cycling and running involve nothing of the sort.

In rowing, the issue is not at all just your brute physiological capacity.

The issue is the energy cost you incur when you pull a certain pace, whatever that pace might be.

If you are stiff, awkward, slow, uncoordinated, sloppy, inconsistent, imbalanced, tense, arhythmic, rough, weak, short, etc., when you row, neglecting the use of certain muscles that you should be using, using muscles that you shouldn't be using, misordering the use of the muscles you should be using, fighting against the resistance of the machine rather than using it to your advantage, or whatever, the result can be devastating to the energy cost you incur when you row a pace--any pace.

Rowing is just one stroke after another.

The 2K is around 200 strokes.

The FM is around 4000.

But a stroke is a stroke.

Each time you do one, the energy cost you incur is pretty much the same, no matter what pace or distance you are rowing.

So those who row well are _enormously_ advantaged relative to those who row poorly.

Sure, you have to have quite a bit of aerobic capacity to do any endurance sport.

But in rowing, the physical and technical "equipment" you use when you draw on whatever aerobic capacity you have determines how fast you go, not just that aerobic capacity alone.

In rowing, the one with the best stroke wins.

So what you can do for a FM @ 22 spm determines what you can do for 2K @ 32 spm (or whatever).

As a lightweight, my rowing 1:46 @ 22 spm (13 SPI), just naturally, is the equivalent of you (or any other heavyweight) rowing 1:40 @ 22 spm (16 SPI), just naturally.

That's just rowing well.

All rowers should be able to row a FM @ 22 spm, whatever their natural stroking power might be.

So, try it out.

Put the dial on 1:40 @ 22 spm and row for two and a half hours.

See how it comes out.

That's right around 2:20 for a FM.

In a row of this sort, the distance will enforce limitations in energy cost.

Everyone does a FM at about 75% HRR.

But your aerobic capacity is not at all what will determine how fast you go for the two and a half hours.

What will determine how fast you go for the two and a half hours will be your natural stroking power, how well you row, how much work you get done, just naturally, when you are just relaxing and doing some mild, steady state, work on the erg.

In rowing, fiverowers the same weight and age incurring the same energy cost when they are just rowing along, steady state, for a couple of hours at 22 spm can be going along at wildly different paces.

One can be going 2:05, another 2:00, another 1:55, another 1:50, and another 1:45.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 19th, 2011, 6:26 am

If you are any sort of endurance athlete, the physiological side of 95% of the training for rowing is a no-brainer.

In each of your sessions, just run your HR at middlin' UT1 (75% HRR) for a couple of hours, steady state.

And that's all she wrote.

If you are out of shape and can't do this, heck, there is no reason to waste your time ruining your rowing technique by trying to get in shape by rowing.

Get on a bike, stepper, treadmill, etc., every day, perhaps even twice a day, until you can run your HR at 75% HRR for a couple of hours.

Then, and only then, go back to rowing.

You are now ready to do what matters.

What matters is how much work you do on each stroke when you are rowing at low drag and 22 spm for a couple of hours with you heart rate, steady state, at 75% HRR.

That is, what matters is how well you row, how skilled you are at leveraging a handle on a sliding seat, not how hard you can row at some quick pace, but how easily.

No need to do anything else at this point, really.

If you think you have some talent for the sport, you just need to keep rowing at 22 spm in this way, working on technique, correcting all of the faults in your stroke (bad timing, bad connection, poor length, poor posture, poor compression, bad sequencing, inconsistency, tension, omitted levers, bad angles of leverage, etc.) until you row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights).

Then you can up the rate and prepare to race following one of the standard training plans.

How about this for a claim?

If they are just stroking naturally, everyone the same age and weight who is fit enough to cross-train on a bike, or whatever, for a couple of hours, steady state, at 75% HRR incurs right about the same energy cost relative to their overall capacity when they are rowing at the same rate.

The only difference between them, really, is how well they row, how much work they get done on each stroke, given the rate and therefore level of effort.

If you are a lightweight and go along 1:46 @ 22 spm (13 SPI), or a heavyweight and go along 1:40 @ 22 spm, when you are just stroking naturally, you row well.

If you are a lighweight and go along at 2:06 @ 22 spm (8 SPI), or a heavyweight and go along 1:53 @ 22 spm (11 SPI) when you are just stroking naturally, you need to do a heck of a lot of work on your technique, or perhaps find another sport that you have more talent for.

If you are a lightweight and are somewhere in between, say, 1:56 @ 22 spm (10 SPI), or a heavyweight and go along 1:46 @ 22 spm (13 SPI), you are like most people in the sport. You could be a whole lot better if you learned to row well, but just can't be arsed. It is easier, and perhaps even more fun, just to yank the chain.

To each his own!

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 19th, 2011, 6:39 am

Back in 2002-2004, when I was just stroking naturally, HR steady state at 75% HRR (155 bpm), I pulled 1:56 @ 22 spm (10 SPI).

I rowed at max drag (200+df.).

I didn't know how to row.

I just yanked the chain.

Now, almost ten years later, when I am just stroking naturally, HR steady state at 75% HRR (155 bpm), I pull 1:46 @ 22 spm (13 SPI).

119 df.

I now row well.

The normal decline in times from 50 years old to 60 years old for those who follow traditional rowing plans and just work on their fitness is four seconds per 500m.

So, relative to the norm, and normal modes of training, this swing in times, rowing at 22 spm, is 14 seconds per 500m.

The expectation, given decline with age, is that if I rowed as poorly as I did back when I was 50 years old, I should now be pulling 2:00 @ 22 spm (9 SPI) with a HR, steady state, at middlin' UT1 (155 bpm, 75% HRR), when I go for a long training row, or do a FM trial.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 19th, 2011, 7:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 19th, 2011, 6:42 am

At WIRC 2010, the 60s lwt hammer pulled 1:46/7:04 for 2K.

This seems to be no exception.

Here are the 60s lwt 2K times so far this year:

RANKING RESULTS 2011

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 60-69 | Current 2011 Season

1 Henry Baker 63 Santa Barbara CA USA 7:04.3 RowPro S
2 gregory brock 62 santa cruz ca USA 7:06.1 IND_V I
3 Hugh Pite 66 Sidney BC CAN 7:07.0 IND I
4 Tor-arne Simonsen 60 NOR 7:07.5 RACE I
5 David Aldridge 62 Maidenhead GBR 7:08.0 RACE I
6 Gerald Lawson 63 Winona MN USA 7:09.7 IND I
7 Hugh Conway 61 St. Pats TOW Club IRL 7:09.9 IND_V I
8 Roger Prowse 65 Isle of Wight GBR 7:10.6 RACE I
9 Terry Dargan 66 Sydney NSW AUS 7:11.0 RACE I

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » February 19th, 2011, 7:11 am

Back in 2002-2004, when I rowed as a lightweight, I had three WR rows, lowering the 50s lwt WR by 3.5 seconds, and was in the range of ten seconds or so faster than anyone my age and weight rowing at the time, even though I rowed very badly at max drag.

I didn't know how to row.

I just yanked the chain.

RANKING RESULTS 2004

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 50-59 | 2004 Season

1 Rich CURETON 52 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:28.0 RACE
2 Chris Bertram 51 Old Windsor GBR 6:37.7 RACE
3 dennis hastings 53 USA 6:39.5 RACE
4 Roger Prowse 58 Isle of Wight GBR 6:43.3 RACE
5 Taisto Ylönen 50 Kellokoski Finland GBR 6:44.8 RACE
5 Peter ENGLISH 50 GBR 6:44.8 RACE
7 Bob Lisle 52 GBR 6:47.1 RACE
8 Alain Mangin 54 GBR 6:47.5 RACE
9 Aage CHRISTIANSEN 52 Oslo N NOR 6:53.2 RACE
10 George Meredith 54 Gravesend Kent GBR 6:55.7 RACE

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (119 df.) and so am again preparing to race.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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