Ranger's training thread

[Steve G]

a geezer can have a high heart rate. For one example. I know a man in his late 60's whose heart rate is around 200 when he does easy cycling. The problem is that he has heart disease but not quite to the stage where he gets surgery. I have always had a high max heart rate and after age 70 I have been in the low 180's for short stretches and been in the 170's while doing intervals. Unfortunately, as Fritz Hagerman has pointed out many times, high max heart rate does not indicate fitness or athletic prowess. I believe he did a study and found that max heart rates varied from the 160's to 220's for Olympic rowers. One possibility is that the body might compensate for a lower stroke volume with a higher max heart rate.

Byron--

What's your resting HR?

Mine is 40 bpm.

I don't think you have a low stroke volume if you have a resting HR of 40 spm.

ranger

Mine is 36 often lower, don't mean I can pull a 6.16 though !

[ranger]

Why are you so slow at low drag?

Welcome to the complexities of full-body leveraging of a handle while sitting on a sliding seat!

This is the best question you will ever ask yourself about your rowing.

If you address the problem, you will be good at the sport.

If not, not.

The most important things that you have to learn to do in order to get good leverage at low drag are four: (1) good length, (2) fast legs, (3) good timing and sequencing, (4) good footwork.

(1) You get good length by getting your weight solidly forward onto the balls of your feet at the catch, curling up onto your toes until you have shins vertical. Don't drive off your heels! Drive off the balls of your feet!

(2) Low drag lets you use the length of your legs to the max before you engage your abs and lats. But to take advantage of this you need to relax your shoulders and abs at the catch and hold the angle of your back forward until your legs are almost done. To do this in good rhythm, your legs have to be _very_ fast, probably much faster than they are now.

(3) Do the drive in four beats, two beats for your legs, one beat for your back, and one beat for your arms. The two beats for your legs are quads and then hams/gluts, distinguished at the footplate by balls of the feet and then heels. Really set your heels and stand up on the footplate when you engage your hams/gluts! That's where the max power in the stroke comes from. But when you really push with your legs, keep your shoulders, abs, and lats entirely relaxed. Given that the back and arms have only a beat apiece, they must be very fast, too, to stay in good rhythm. Really accelerate the handle with your back and arms at the end of the stroke. The rowing stroke is not slow. It's snappy. It isn't like weight-lifting. It is like a whiplash.

(4) When you engage your abs and swing your back, drive down with the front of your foot until your weight at the footplate is back up on the balls of your feet. Point your toes. Hold that position at the footplate until pull with your arms and then recover your arms. Rolls back down to hour heels to recover your back and get back into prep position.

Good luck!

It only took me about eight years to get it right.

Blink of an eye.

Even though I am a 60s lwt, I now pull 13 SPI at 119 df.

That's 1:43 @ 25 spm.

My drive is only .5 seconds.

So I do 1:43 @ 25 spm in a 3.8-to-1 ratio.

When you master it, the combination of stroking power and high ratio in a good rowing stroke is astonishing.

Welcome to the complexities of the full-body leveraging of a handle while sitting on a sliding sea.

ranger

[ranger]

Because rowing is so aggressively technical and skeletal-muscular but at the same time repetitive, it is _very_ important that what you do from day to day to work on your fitness and aerobic capacity doesn't work against your purposes and make you habitually bad at the sport rather than good.

To escape this fate, you need to take good strokes.

Always.

Never take a bad stroke.

That's why I am so delighted with my "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" sessions at 25 spm, 1:43, 13 SPI, 119 df., 3.8-to-1 ratio, and middlin' UT1 heart rate (160 bpm), steady state.

This is world class stroking for a lightweight of any age, while being very good for aerobic fitness, too.

Given that I am now a 60s lwt, this rowing is nothing short of astonishing.

When I am doing this session, I am just going along at what amounts to something very close to WR 2K pace at 25 spm in a 3.8-to-1 ratio with a middlin' UT1 heart rate, steady state.

When you are trained up for it, anyone with experience in endurance sports and some ambitious, consistent training OTErg can row a FM with a middlin' UT1 heart rate.

In any event, anyone can do this rowing every day for 20K-30K and come back easily the next day with no residual tiredness.

If you can get so your technique and stroking power is this good, the game of rowing is won.

You have reached rowing Nirvana.

Your training is perfect.

And OTErg, racing is just a reflection of training.

Racing is entirely redundant, a no-brainer.

Erg races are won in training long before anyone sits down to pull from 2K to 0 at a race venue.

ranger

[ranger]

Mine is 36

Sure.

Just the point.

That's why your maxHR isn't 190 bpm, like mine.

What is your maxHR?

160 bpm?

155 bpm?

150 bpm?

If your maxHR is 150 bpm, you might have a hard time running it at 160 bpm for two hours, as I did yesterday.

All else equal, if you could, you'd be quite a bit faster OTErg.

All else equal, 30-40 bpm are worth about two training bands OTErg, 10 seconds per 500m.

When someone's maxHR falls from 200 to 160 over the 40 years from 20 to 60, they lose that 10 seconds per 500m OTErg.

The Open lwt WR is around 6:00/1:30. The 60s lwt WR is around 6:40/1:40.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

What do you rate for 2K OTW in your ix?

26 spm?

So why not just do that OTErg?

If you did, pulling 1:41, you'd be rowing well.

13 SPI

ranger

[snowleopard]

I have avoided this disaster.

Really?

http://concept2.co.uk/birc/result_analy ... c_id=37858

[ranger]

Steve--

What's your maxHR?

ranger

[ranger]

I only have 143.5 lbs. of non-fat body mass.

So at a very modest 10% body fat, I weigh 158 lbs.

But, lord almighty, I still have a hard time time making weight.

I'm a lard ball!

Given my body type, this is a scourge of age, I guess.

At 60 years old, for some folks, it is pretty hard to get lean.

Only 1% of 60-year-old males are 10% body fat, and I suspect that, because of their body type, most of those 60-year-olds who are 10% body fat couldn't row a lick if their life depended on it.

Steve Green isn't a rower of any sort.

He's a runner.

Sure, when I was 20 years old, I was 155 lbs.

So, at that point, as a runner, swimmer, and canoeist, I was 8% body fat.

But it is a different matter entirely to be 8% body fat and 155 lbs. now that I am 60.

Ugh.

50% of 20-year-old males are 10% body fat--just naturally, without even working at it.

ranger

[ranger]

Given their body build, I would guess that the great young Danish Lightweights (such as Eskild E.), who row OTW at 155 lbs. and 8% body fat, won't have a hope in hell of making weight, even for indoor rowing, at 165 lbs., when they are 60.

ranger

[Steve G]

I only have 143.5 lbs. of non-fat body mass.

So at a very modest 10% body fat, I weigh 158 lbs.

But, lord almighty, I still have a hard time time making weight.

I'm a lard ball!

Given my body type, this is a scourge of age, I guess.

At 60 years old, for some folks, it is pretty hard to get lean.

Only 1% of 60-year-old males are 10% body fat, and I suspect that, because of their body type, most of those 60-year-olds who are 10% body fat couldn't row a lick if their life depended on it.

Steve Green isn't a rower of any sort.

He's a runner.

Sure, when I was 20 years old, I was 155 lbs.

So, at that point, as a runner, swimmer, and canoeist, I was 8% body fat.

But it is a different matter entirely to be 8% body fat and 155 lbs. now that I am 60.

Ugh.

50% of 20-year-old males are 10% body fat--just naturally, without even working at it.

ranger

Rich
I have never pretended to be a rower, it was always a second sport to me.
6.55 as a 50+ weighing 140 lbs ain't too bad though!
We have a lot of ex runners amongst our top local cyclists, guess which sport they would rather do if they weren't injured, you've guessed it, running!

As for max HR, never had it tested, although, although during my 5X5 mins 1R I used to hit 160, so max was around 168 perhaps, I used to run 5K circa 17.00 with a flat HR of 159.
Pound for pound perhaps not much between us in the rowing circle!
My SPI must be rather puny though sub 38 10K rating 30+ !!

Have a good one this weekend!

[Byron Drachman]

Feb 12, 2011: I'm a lard ball! Given my body type, this is a scourge of age, I guess. At 60 years old, for some folks, it is pretty hard to get lean.

The metabolism tends to slow down as we age. You can fight the process not only by exercising more but also by counting calories and not exaggerating the amount of calories you burn while exercising. Also, over the years you have made references to binge drinking and binge eating so I assume they are contributing to the problem.

[bellboy]

Is Cincy far from Ann Arbor? Wonder if he's there and raring to go?! We can but hope.

[mikvan52]

Mike--

What do you rate for 2K OTW in your ix?

26 spm?

So why not just do that OTErg?

If you did, pulling 1:41, you'd be rowing well.

13 SPI

ranger

Is this troll banter? (We've been through this before!) But I'll bite..... Before I answer your question I'd like to know your best 1k time OTW. In this "tutti frutti" cyber world it's sometimes good to come back to reality. Races are won by getting to the finish line first. Stroke rate measurements (SPI) are not the issue!

Rich: Who had the fastest 55-59 1k time OTW in the US last summer? Who has won 11 consecutive 1k contests against all comers at the last two National Championships?
Hint: Look below in my signature
"all 55-59 men" means heavyweights too (like Spousta)
I gear all my training to win on the water. Funny that it works well enough to win Crash-bs twice...

Maybe you should start listening to someone who's "been there" if you want to scull well => leave your "unfinished business" (6:16 2k on the erg) on the shelf and learn how to row well OTW. Based on actual weight: You are only a fraction better than me on the erg. Think for a moment though: "What does the technique you've built for the erg done for your OTW prospects?"

IOW: Give up SPI & learn to move a boat. You could start by either rowing on slides or getting a dynamic erg from C2.
The Head of the Charles is coming up sooner than you think. Spousta, Meyer, Anderson and others are not worried about your advertised and never demonstrated 13 spi on the erg... you only held 11 for about a minute at the BIRC.... just like an ordinary top athlete... not "unprecedented".

Have you given up on Boston yet? Weight cutting sucks, doesn't it?
Sorry: I'm not being "positive" am I?

Here: Listen to this:

http://www.carlosdinares.com/carloss-ti ... ry-stroke/

and read this part:
Carlos Dinares is against any situation that makes the rower destroy his stroke. He doesn’t understand why rowers that test on the stationary erg have the chance to take the last 250 meters without using their legs when we all know that this makes you stop the boat and develop bad habits. Is the result of this test real? What gives you a score doesn’t assure you water speed.

[Byron Drachman]

Is Cincy far from Ann Arbor? Wonder if he's there and raring to go?! We can but hope.

It is about 260 miles, about 4 hours of driving. According to their website, the race is several miles south of Cincy and you cross the border into northern Kentucky.

IOW: Give up SPI & learn to move a boat.

Sigh. If only he would listen.

[ranger]

Is Cincy far from Ann Arbor? Wonder if he's there and raring to go?! We can but hope.

Naw.

I'm still home here in Ann Arbor, taking it easy.

Nice 20K of "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy," this morning, followed by an hour OTBike, HR 155 bpm.

ranger