Ranger's training thread

[PaulH]

I don't know. 'Well' is a subjective term

No need to use the word "well" at all.

It's not that there's no need, it's that the word is wrong.

So, what is the role of leverage, footwork, timing, sequencing, length, quickness, preparation, rhythmicity, posture, balance, relaxation, control, smoothness, consistency, drag, drive time, ratio, etc., in erging?

ranger

All important (to varying degrees) in going fast, or in having a nice relaxed row, esp. on the water. None of them expressed by an arbitrary integer.

[mikvan52]

IOW: SPI is a bullshit #

Those who row well will always exchange rate for pace to win. Thereby lowering this garbage number...

Put that in you "ideals" pipe and smoke it.
Also: I've never met an asshole who has had a full set of respectable ideals

This SPI topic comes around every year, is discredited, and then disgarded.... New visitors to this thread take note.
Figure out the math(!) The topic is a non-starter.... Just like ranger who has not even demoed his spi fantasy with a single IND_V 2k performance.
" I now row well " (for 2k at 13, 12.5 {whatever} spi) is to laugh when speaking of an aged 170 lb man...

< _end_ _of_ _story_ >

[ranger]

Those who row well will always exchange rate for pace to win.

Sure, if they first row well.

If you don't row well (especially in training), there is nothing to exchange and therefore no pace to get when you race and raise the rate.

There is only ineffectiveness and inefficiency traded for more of the same.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Those who row well will always exchange rate for pace to win.

Sure, if they first row well.

Rich:
Can you read?
I said "those who row well" not those who row at a certain spi figure.
By definition, winning is rowing well. Or, am I wrong? Do those who "row well" lose, as you do?

But getting back to preparation for winning:
Let's look at some numbers on the boards this C2 year:

Veteran Men (Age 60-64) 2000M Mid Atantic Erg Sprints
Robert Spousta Occoquan Boat Club 06:33.4

Veteran Men (Age 50-54) 2000M Mid Atantic Erg Sprints
Paul Siebach Northern Virginia Rowing Club 06:35.2

55-59 Men BIRC
Richard Cureton Ann Arbor, Michigan, 59 ….7:02.3

Of these three: What will be the order of finish at CRASH-Bs, a week and a half from now?
I'll venture a guess:
#1 Spousta, # 2 Siebach, #3 Cureton...
What's your 'unprecedented' prediction Rich? You've been sharpening for months now ... (?) And(!) your "work is complete"... We will finally see the text-book ranger in action, won't we? Or, will the yellow "snow" start falling again?

We will also know the spi figures of all finishers once the dust settles after results are posted...

[JimR]

What's your 'unprecedented' prediction Rich? You've been sharpening for months now ... (?) And(!) your "work is complete"... We will finally see the text-book ranger in action, won't we? Or, will the yellow "snow" start falling again?

We will also know the spi figures of all finishers once the dust settles after results are posted...

I think there will be a no-show for that very reason ... the data is available to see the spi is a hoax.

JimR

[mikvan52]

As Crash-Bs approach ranger (if he shows) will see if he falls into his spi tabulation.

We've discussed this before

Here

As ever: 13 spi is a ridiculous mark for ranger to try to hit:

eg: 1:40/500m at 26 spm!


My advice is for him to stay home in Ann Arbor so he can 'prepare' for 'the future'.....(fooling some newbies)

[JimR]

My advice is for him to stay home in Ann Arbor so he can 'prepare' for 'the future'.....(fooling some newbies)

How exactly would that be in the best interest of his adoring fans???

JimR

[ranger]

By definition, winning is rowing well. Or, am I wrong?

No, as in your case, winning (or losing) on the erg has a lot to do with aerobic capacity in addition to the quality of your rowing.

Given your aerobic capacity, if you row well, you will go faster than if you row poorly.

But if your aerobic capacity is slight, you still might have a hard time winning.

ranger

[ranger]

13 spi is a ridiculous mark for ranger to try to hit: e.g.: 1:40/500m at 26 spm!

No, that's 13.5 SPI.

1:41 @ 26 spm is 13 SPI.

Done for 2K, 1:41 @ 26 spm is the heavyweight qualifying time for WIRC 2011.

6:44

In my "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" sessions, I have been doing 1:42 @ 26 spm (12.8 SPI) with a middlin' UT1 HR (160 bpm).

I can run a middlin' UT1 HR for a FM.

At Cincinnati, I'll just rate 30 spm and see how it goes.

At 119 df. and 13 SPI, I still do 30 spm in a _huge_ ratio:

3-to-1

.5 seconds for the drive, 1.5 seconds for the recovery.

13 SPI @ 30 spm is about 1:37 pace.

It is not at all ridiculous to race at 13 SPI if your technique naturally gets that much work done on each stroke and you row all of your meters in training at 13 SPI and so are entirely comfortable with it.

Cashin would pull 1:41 for 2K at 22 spm (15.5 SPI).

Cashin will be a 60s heavyweight in three years.

At Cincinnati and WIRC, I am rowing as a 60s heavyweight.

At WIRC 2010, only three rowers pulled under 6:44, only two under 6:40, only one under 6:39, and none under 6:33.

2010 C.R.A.S.H.-B. Sprints World Indoor Rowing Championships

Event: Veteran Men (Age 60-64)

1 Spousta Robert Occoquan Boat Club 06:33.6 60
2 Dürr Manfred Ludwig Karl Concept2 Team Germany 06:39.1 62
3 Castellan James Fairmount Rowing Association 06:43.8 64
4 Tebay Mike Greenwich Crew 06:46.4 63
5 Lane Fred Unaffiliated 06:48.4 60
6 Miller Stuart Maine Rowing Association 06:50.6 62
7 Van Blom John Long Beach Rowing Association 06:55.7 62
8 Harburg Fred Unaffiliated 06:56.5 61
9 Dreissigacker Richard Concept2 06:57.8 62
10 Henry Dickinson Unaffiliated 06:59.5 62

ranger

[JimR]

In my "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" sessions, I have been doing 1:42 @ 26 spm (12.8 SPI) with a middlin' UT1 HR (160 bpm).

I can run a middlin' UT1 HR for a FM.

So you are implying (with the two "facts" above) that you can do a 1:42 @ 26 spm (12.8 SPI) FM (42K) right now ... but we both know this isn't true. What I would like to know ... why can't you? What stops you from doing this ... do you get tired, does your HR drift too high?

JimR

[ranger]

So you are implying (with the two "facts" above) that you can do a 1:42 @ 26 spm (12.8 SPI) FM (42K) right now ... but we both know this isn't true. What I would like to know ... why can't you? What stops you from doing this ... do you get tired, does your HR drift too high?

JimR

In its skeletal-motor and technical aspects, rowing is all about habituation, relaxation, repetition, unconscious execution, etc.

The FM is the ultimate test of this.

That's why it's so useful.

It takes a while to get entirely used to a new technique, especially if it is rowing well instead of just some weak, wasteful, sloppy thing you do because you don't know any better or know better but can't be arsed to clean up.

Now, I am just putting in the meters with my new technique, getting more and more habituated to it, relaxed with it, etc.

Just doin' it, doin' it.

Sure.

When I am entirely used to it, I'll do a FM trial.

The music helps a lot.

It keeps me in the groove, given the novelty of the work.

As I mentioned, back in 2002-2003, I tended to row 1:52 @ 26 spm not 1:41 @ 26 spm.

Rowing along at 26 spm, I now do 30% more work on each stroke, get 30% more peak pressure with my legs, spend 30% less time on each drive, pull against half the drag, and maintain twice the ratio.

I row right on a beat, sit up tall, use a full slide, set my heels in the middle of the drive, drive with my calves and toes at the end of the drive, lead with my legs, sequence my levers, delaying my back, and control the slide on the recovery.

Pretty different business.

Back in 2002-2003, I didn't do any of these things.

It takes some time to get used to such a big change.

ranger

[macroth]

Just in case some innocent souls are reading this tripe, please note that ranger is, as usual, wrong.

With his talk of SPI and "habituation", like a true poet, rangerboy completely ignores the physical limitations of the human body, in particular his own decaying pile of flesh and bones.


The truth of the matter is, after a few minutes of his musical rides in fantasyland, ranger is gasping for air and begging for mercy. No amount of repetition will get his body accustomed to these efforts to the point where he'll perform a marathon at 1:42/500m pace. If all goes well for him this year, he may manage a 1:40-1:42/500m 2K, but not at 26spm, more like 30+. Different world entirely. The rest of us like to call it "reality".

[ranger]

Mike--

You are 6' tall, etc., but Dick Cashin, who is right around your age, just stroking naturally, pulls 1:41 @ 22 spm, while, when you race, if you could go that fast, which, it seems, you no longer can, would pull 1:41 @ 36 spm.

22 spm vs. 36 spm!

Wow.

Every time Cashin takes a stroke OTErg, he gets almost twice as much work done as you do.

Wow.

Why?

Could it be because he rows pretty darn well, and, and, you, well, ...

Pulling 1:41, just stroking naturally, Cashin goes 13.5 MPS, while you go 8.3 MPS.

Wow.

Let's call you the egg-beater, and Cashin, the windmill.

ranger

[ranger]

My claim that rowing well for lightweights is 13 SPI and that rowing well for heavyweights is 16 SPI suggests that heavyweights do 23% more work per stroke than lightweights.

But if a 60s lwt who pulls 9 SPI runs into 60s hwts and lwts who row well, the 60s hwt who rows well gets 72% more work done per stroke and the 60s lwt gets 45% more work done per stroke.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Rich:
Once again you've ignored the chart below:

Here

Show us what you can do, not what you think you can do.

1:40.......=> 26.9 spm.... => 6:40 2k .. IND_V
That will get you the 60-64 lwt WR... but you cannot do it even as a hwt.

Fire up the PM4, good buddy! Crank up your kracker kuntry juke box. It won't help.
You cannot keep the stroke rate down at 26.9 and hold 1:40.0 pace average for six minutes and forty seconds.

Bringing up 6' 7" Dick Cashin who is 56 years old will not help your cause either

The jig is up, old man.