Ranger's training thread

[former lightweight]

Rich,

Please cite, specifically, what evidence you have to support this assertion: "Because of the culture that surrounds the sport (the major training plans, clubs, collegiate teams, national teams, winter erg races, etc.), almost no one takes the time to learn to row well at low drag."

I'm very interested to see what examples you have to offer that somehow involve collegiate and national teams. Thanks.

[goblin]

Hey.

I would be delighted to see some other veteran rowers try to train themselves to row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) at low drag (e.g., 119 df.).

It would be interesting to have comrades in arms.

ranger

Just like you

[ranger]

Rich,

Please cite, specifically, what evidence you have to support this assertion: "Because of the culture that surrounds the sport (the major training plans, clubs, collegiate teams, national teams, winter erg races, etc.), almost no one takes the time to learn to row well at low drag."

I'm very interested to see what examples you have to offer that somehow involve collegiate and national teams. Thanks.

I am not saying that no young elite rowers (on collegiate and national teams) learn to row well at low drag. They clearly do. I am saying that training programs for rowing are largely tailored to these young elite rowers and therefore are inappropriate for other rowers, who are usually either less elite, or older, or less experienced, or less closely coached, or less involved with OTW rowing, especially in big boats, etc. On a national team, I presume that it is a blanket assumption that, if you are chosen for the team, you already row well. Therefore, how you train while on the team does not have to consider these technical and skeletal-motor matters very closely, beyond a check that they are still indeed in place. Nothing of the sort is assumed for the others who participate in the sport, and these others now form an overwhelming majority.

ranger

[ranger]

Hey.

I would be delighted to see some other veteran rowers try to train themselves to row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) at low drag (e.g., 119 df.).

ranger

Just like you

No.

I row well at low drag.

Fait accompli.

Now, I am just playing out the consequences of this accomplishment for race preparation and racing.

ranger

[ranger]

There is no evidence whatsoever (none) that you 'row well' at 13spi.

I have already pulled a sub-6:30 2K at 12 SPI, without even preparing for it, but at high drag, still struggling with technique.

Those remaining technical problems are now solved, and I have lowered the drag.

I now do all of my training, habitually and comfortably, rowing well at low drag.

I don't row any other way.

So the only thing remaining is to play out this accomplishment for race preparation and racing.

For you, racing is the only evidence for this accomplishment.

I respect that, but that is your assumption, not mine.

I assume that I am rowing well at low drag, habitually and comfortably, if I am rowing 20K or so every day rowing well at low drag, habitually and comfortably.

Eventually, how you race just reflects how you train.

So this evidence is all that I need.

If you need the race results, too, so be it.

They will come along soon, so there is no reason to make yourself sick about it.

ranger

[ranger]

The "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" rowing at 26 spm, rowing well (12.7 SPI) at low drag (119 df) in a 3.4-to-1 ratio is a crucial stage in my training.

In the end, it will tell all.

The goal is to get so that I can do this rowing, steady state, just under my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm) at top-end UT1.

Then, with minor departures, I can use this cadence to do trials at all of the races from 5K to HM.

Given my stroking power now, at 26 spm, I move along at WR 2K pace + 1.5 for my age and weight.

Top-end UT1 is 2K + 10.

So, when I succeed with this project, I will row a HM in the area of 8.5 seconds per 500m faster than anyone my age or weight.

The 60s lwt WR for a HM is 1:54 pace, 1:20.

At 26 spm, I now go along at 1:42.

The difference between 1:42 @ 26 spm and 1:54 @ 26 spm, if they are both done with a comfortable rowing motion, is primarily skeletal-muscular and technical (effectiveness and efficiency while rowing), not aerobic.

For a lightweight, 1:42 @ 26 spm is just rowing well (13 SPI).

1:54 @ 26 spm is just rowing poorly (9 SPI).

The energy cost of rowing at 26 spm is pretty much the same for everyone if the 26 spm is done just stroking naturally (habitually, automatically, unconsciously, etc.).

A 3.4-to-1 ratio is _enormously_ comfortable.

The rest-to-work ratio is so high it feels like a Sunday stroll.

ranger

[ranger]

Lancs--

What is your stroking power and drag when you row at 26 spm?

That will determine your drive time and therefore ratio.

Post a digipic of your force contour when you are rowing at 26 spm.

That will tell the story of how well you are rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

Lancs--

What is your stroking power and drag when you row at 26 spm?

That will determine your drive time and therefore ratio.

Post a digipic of your force contour when you are rowing at 26 spm.

That will tell the story of how well you are rowing.

At 119 df., just rowing naturally, I now get 125 kg.F of peak force with a drive time of just .5 seconds.

Nice!

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, given that Eskild E. now rows 6:16 for 2K, he can't row 1:42 @ 26 spm for a hM, or even for 60min.

10K, 1:42 @ 26 spm should be just about it.

10K is done at 2K + 8.

ranger

[ranger]

Pulling 1:54 @ 26 spm (9 SPI), which is about what I used to do for long rows, such as a FM, back in 2002-2003, I only get 85 kg.F of peak force.

At 26 spm and 119 df., I now pull 1:42 (12.7 SPI)--3.7 SPI, or right around 40% more watts per stroke, and get 125 kg.F, or or right around 50% more peak force.

As a result, at the same rate, I go 12 seconds per 500m faster.

For rowers the same size, if you are just stroking naturally, rowing at 26 spm feels right about the same aerobically, no matter what your natural stroking power might be.

For rowers the same size, if you are just stroking naturally, the energy cost rating 26 spm is pretty much a constant.

For rowers the same size, if you are just stroking naturally, what determines how fast you go at 26 spm is not your aerobic capacity but how well you row.

ranger

[ginster]

For rowers the same size, if you are just stroking naturally, what determines how fast you go at 26 spm is not your aerobic capacity but how well you row.

ranger

this may be true to some extent for 1-10 strokes, but how fast you go over 2km, is way more dependant on your aerobic capacity, as you are now finding, given that you have neglected yours for so long whilst practising RWBs. Its no good having a big engine, if you can't find the fuel to run it.

[ranger]

If your fitness is maximal and you are just stroking normally, there is no reason to row in anything greater than a 3.4-to-1 ratio.

Even 3.4-to-1 is a ridiculous amount of recovery time after each drive.

So, if you are a lightweight who rows well (13 SPI), there is no reason to ever row much slower than 1:42 pace in your everyday rowing, even if you row 20K a day.

ranger

[ranger]

For rowers the same size, if you are just stroking naturally, what determines how fast you go at 26 spm is not your aerobic capacity but how well you row.

ranger

this may be true to some extent for 1-10 strokes, but how fast you go over 2km, is way more dependant on your aerobic capacity, as you are now finding, given that you have neglected yours for so long whilst practising RWBs. Its no good having a big engine, if you can't find the fuel to run it.

Neglected my fitness?

Hardly.

My fitness has been maximal for a decade.

Even though I am 60 years old, I can run my HR at 170 bpm for an hour.

My resting HR is 40 bpm.

Just stroking naturally, all good lightweights, of whatever age, can do 20K at 26 spm.

At 12.7 SPI, that's right around 1750 strokes.

10 x 2K (no rest)

11.5 MPS

Most good lightweights do a 2K at 36 spm, not 26 spm.

20K is done at 2K + 10

How fast you go when you are rating 26 spm doesn't depend on your aerobic capacity.

It depends on how well you row.

If you only pull 9 SPI when you are just stroking naturally, you only go 1:54 @ 26 spm, not 1:42.

To go 1:42, you have to rate 37 spm.

Sure, rating 37 spm is stressful aerobically, a heck of a lot more stressful than 26 spm.

ranger

[PaulH]

Just remembered, I made a prediction for your Indy row that, while it was way off the mark, was closer to what happened than yours. That means I'm better able to predict both your training (already discussed) and your racing than you are. Hence I offer up my services; what would you like to know about your future performance?

[ranger]

Ironically, all of the major training plans for rowing say nothing at all about how to row well at low drag, yet it is just how well you row at low drag that determines how fast you go when you row.

If you are just rowing to get some exercise, sure, it doesn't matter how fast you go. Pace is irrelevant. Just get some work done.

But if you are rowing because you want to compete/race, after a _very_ short time, your aerobic capacity and fitness will have very little to do with how fast you go.

Why?

How fast you go in rowing depends on how well you row.

Rowing is primarily skeletal-muscular and technical.

It is only secondarily aerobic.

ranger