Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
mchase
Paddler
Posts: 24
Joined: December 8th, 2010, 10:27 am

Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by mchase » December 8th, 2010, 12:12 pm

I just joined the CII forum and so I am unsure of the landscape here. I posed this question on another forum (Rowing Illustrated) and a user there suggested that there are perhaps more members with specific training and experience in this subject matter at the CII forum.

For background, I'm a retired physician and a rowing coach of a large high school team, specifically a club team where the kids train year-round. We have 50 ergs in our erging facility (a rented room) and the kids typically put in 60-90 minutes of erging per night for the majority of their workouts (steady state). Those workouts are pretty standard-- do 60 or 90 minutes, go to your prescribed watts for steady state (SS), and watch the movie on the big screeen (a 9' screen, darkened room, big sound system, very good ventilation). Stop and drink whenever you want. Get up and move from a stationary erg to the slides when you wish (usually by boat but chaos theory relied upon to keep all ergs full at all times). The varsity members have been through lactate testing including step test, lactate recovery, and steady state. Steady state testing is ongoing, typically doing 20 tests per night to keep kids dialed in. The novices and JV rely on heart rate monitors (HRM) or just, "It feels right-- not too hard, not too light".

So here's my question:
I'm going to toss a topic out to the wolves- I have this notion that some athletes are simply "too anaerobic" and that blunts their response in a 2K.

Let me explain. "Too anaerobic" means that these athletes are big lactate producers, and they produce lactate better than they consume it. Lactate is not, as once thought, an evil by-product of anaerobic work. It is a significant energy source to the aerobic system during exercise.

If one trains primarily the anaerobic system on a daily basis, then lactate development is enhanced. Conversely, if one trains the aerobic system primarily, then lactate consumption is improved. Somewhere there is a fine balance between the two systems that results in the fastest 2K time that an individual can achieve, other physiologic parameters being constant (well, we can't do that). If the aerobic system's ability to consume lactate so overwhelms the anaerobic system's ability to produce it, then insufficient energy will be available (as well as insufficient "sprint" strength). If the anaerobic system is so emphasized in training that it overwhelms the aerobic system with lactate, then the lactate level rises precipitously and blunts a 2K race result.

In reviewing > 500 lactate levels to date, done in both step, lactate recovery and steady state testing, several trends are developing. Those kids who push themselves without regard to the nature of the workout (ie, always racing, never recovering), will suffer a precipitous rise in lactate after 1 minute and it will remain elevated. That is, their aerobic system does not consume the lactate that their anaerobic system so magnificently produces. Meanwhile, the really aerobic kids do not have that precipitous rise and their recovery curve represents a steeper drop. That is, their aerobic system consumes lactate with abandon.

Interestingly, when reviewing the data, it is clear where the fastest kids are-- they are on the more aerobic end of the spectrum. While some slower erg scores do creep into this fast aerobic group, I feel that this phenomenon probably represents, at least for this sprinkling of slower rowers, their ideal position on the aerobic-anaerobic continuum for their physiology.

The fastest kids are those who continue to improve with each erg test, eventually becoming the fastest in the club. The once fastest kids, those who became stale and plateaued, are easily identified on testing. They are all anaerobes.

While I have lots more work to do (little issues of statistical significance and prospectively, how kids who have become stale in their training, do as we move them along this continuum toward the more aerobic end), I am surprised by the lack of scientific articles regarding this topic.
So that was my question. Cast me to the wolves or educate me.

ausrwr
2k Poster
Posts: 288
Joined: December 18th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by ausrwr » December 8th, 2010, 1:26 pm

Different streaks for different freaks, I'd say.

My thought would be that the kids you describe as "too anaerobic" are perhaps more so because of their attitude to the piece: if you go absolutely bananas over the first minute or so, you're building up a debt from which it is very hard to recover. If they were a little more reserved, perhaps the effects you describe wouldn't be so noticeable.

Though, does this approach materially affect the speed of the piece? I'd use that as a judgement.

And it is interesting to note the dichotomy in lactate production - some people throw massive numbers - 22 mmol plus etc, and there are others for who it's a killer to hit 5 or 6 mmol. My thoughts on this (and I'm not a physiologist by any means, just done more lab tests than I care to remember...) are that aerobic training works, flat out. The issue seems more to develop pacing mechanisms and coping mechanisms to suit the athlete.

What a terrible answer...
Rich Cureton. 7:02 at BIRC. But "much better than that now". Yeah, right.

User avatar
jliddil
6k Poster
Posts: 717
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 11:44 am
Location: North Haven, CT

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by jliddil » December 8th, 2010, 2:43 pm

Have you done a pubmed search? For example using the terms "lactate metabolism exercise". Lot's of hit and around 1400 free full text article. Lack of articles? Granted you may not find an article "Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic" involving a specific protocol suing the C2 and 2K testing but certainly there is not a lack of research regarding Lactate metabolism during exercise. Or am I missing something?

Are we genetically all the same? Clearly not. Look at Sherpas who can survive the death zone of Everest multiple times in a season?
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

mchase
Paddler
Posts: 24
Joined: December 8th, 2010, 10:27 am

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by mchase » December 8th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Thanks for your response.

I don't want to paint this as simply as fly-and-die phenomenon. The kids who become stale and fail to improve show an anaerobic propensity in their numbers. Those who are more aerobic are also the kids who are improving more quickly. This has played out often enough to get my attention. How do we improve kids who are plateaued (or getting worse)? My thought is to show them the numbers and show them where to park their SS workouts. Show them the error of their ways.

Aerobic training does work. We've had to increase the SS wattage of 8 kids in the last week due to pulling their SS watts at a lower lactate than 2 weeks previously. The anaerobic kids are starting to buy off on this because they can see their lactate dropping while pulling the same watts. (And I label the kids as "anaerobic" based on a variety of criteria including their V4, 2K watts compared to peak power watts, lactate recovery curve, velocity at 2mmol as compared to PP and 2K, among others).

mchase
Paddler
Posts: 24
Joined: December 8th, 2010, 10:27 am

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by mchase » December 8th, 2010, 3:00 pm

jliddil,

I done my searches on Google Scholar. It seems to draw from Pubmed as well as other sites, but I will go to pubmed and try. Thanks for the suggestion.

Nosmo
10k Poster
Posts: 1595
Joined: November 21st, 2006, 3:39 pm

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by Nosmo » December 8th, 2010, 3:13 pm

Maybe you can ask someone like Steve Sieler or Mike Caviston directly. Don't know if Steve will respond to emails (didn't respond to mine the one time I tried a few years ago and I used to train with him in the mid 90's). Mike often seems to respond when discussing the wolverine plan.
I'm sure that are others who study these sorts of things and are very up on the liturature you could ask.

Tinus
2k Poster
Posts: 214
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 7:35 pm

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by Tinus » December 8th, 2010, 4:12 pm

mchase wrote:I'm going to toss a topic out to the wolves- I have this notion that some athletes are simply "too anaerobic" and that blunts their response in a 2K.

Let me explain. "Too anaerobic" means that these athletes are big lactate producers, and they produce lactate better than they consume it. Lactate is not, as once thought, an evil by-product of anaerobic work. It is a significant energy source to the aerobic system during exercise.

If one trains primarily the anaerobic system on a daily basis, then lactate development is enhanced. Conversely, if one trains the aerobic system primarily, then lactate consumption is improved. Somewhere there is a fine balance between the two systems that results in the fastest 2K time that an individual can achieve
- You suggest that of two rowers with similar aerobic capacity (lung ventilation, blood flow, mitochondria concentration etc.) it could be possible that higher anaerobic capacity could cause one of them to do worse on 2K?
- If lactate is not an evil by-product of anaerobic work and an important component of the aerobic energy system, why then does anaerobic exercise adaptation induce higher lactate production?
- Isn't high lactate production and lactate tolerance an indicator of high power output ability in oxygen limited situations (of which a 2K is an example)? How would someone with lower lactate production be able to have the same power output give the same oxygen limitations?

The way you express it, sounds like anaerobic capacity has a detrimental effect on aerobic capacity. Do you possibly mean to say that putting too much focus on anaerobic capacity is bad for total performance not because anaerobic capacity has negative side effects but merely because it is associated with neglected stimulation of aerobic capacity? (such a statement would seem true irrespective of the in depth explanation of the micro biological process)

mchase
Paddler
Posts: 24
Joined: December 8th, 2010, 10:27 am

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by mchase » December 8th, 2010, 9:25 pm

First, I do not know the answer to this conundrum-- work out too hard too often and your performance in a 2K may suffer.

I do know that in my experience, the statement is true. Since we started lactate testing, the numbers suggest the same. For example, one of my varsity rowers during steady state had a lactate of 17 last night. For those of you familiar with lactates, that is the value that you'd expect after a 2K test, not steady state. The rower said, "I feel fine." as he stood dripping sweat on the floor. If steady state is the peas, carrots, and spinach of rowing, it doesn't make sense that he should be pulling a lactate north of 15 night after night. Is it any wonder that his numbers show a shift to the anaerobic side? That he has a great peak power? That he tolerates lactate really well? Is there any question about his work ethic?

But he bombs his 2K.

I can't be the only coach experiencing this stuff. I want the kid to improve his erg score, not simply work hard every night. To do it, I must convince him to go slower and to go slower, I put parameters around it-- a lactate range that he must stay within. He doesn't like it, just like all the others of his ilk.

I turned to the literature hoping to find the answer. I cannot find it. Look up lactate kinetics, peak lactate, lactate clearance, lactate recovery curve, too anaerobic, and about 50 other terms. Thousands of articles are written. I've looked and looked and I cannot find an exercise physiologist who has studied and written about this phenomenon in the scientific literature.

User avatar
jliddil
6k Poster
Posts: 717
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 11:44 am
Location: North Haven, CT

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by jliddil » December 8th, 2010, 10:18 pm

I could make money doing literature reviews and searches.
Not a definitive paper but it follows others stuff I read today.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... p00192.pdf

I think you are all trying to way over simplify this and suggest that lactate is a perfect measure of one's ability. It works in general but there will always be outliers. And no matter how much training some people do their genetics are such that they won't clear lactate well. Look at the enzymes in many Asians and Native Americans for clearing alcohol. You may convince this rower to go slower and he may improve or he may not. That is the genetic cards we are dealt.
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

User avatar
NavigationHazard
10k Poster
Posts: 1789
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:11 pm
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by NavigationHazard » December 9th, 2010, 4:52 am

If you haven't already seen it, you might want to take a look at Donatelli, Sports-specific Rehabilitation, especially around pp. 48-49: http://tinyurl.com/29a24gw (link to Google Books)

IMO the comments about the relationship between duration, exercise intensity and maximal lactate steady-state lactate (mlss) on p. 49 are maybe relevant. Someone (maybe Beneke 2000; I haven't read the article) seems to have found that blood lactate in some individuals neither levels off after 10 minutes or so nor drops but continues to rise. It might be worth trying to follow that up.

If you read further in Donatelli he reviews quite a bit of literature on gender and age-specific aspects of blood-lactate responses to exercise. Those also may be worth following up on. In high school rowers, sexual maturation and its related hormonal changes (especially testosterone levels) may well be behind at least some part of the phenomenon you're reporting.

And FWIW, Beneke also has a new article in European Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 110, Number 1, 215-218, DOI: 10.1007/s00421-010-1481-z, Lactate response to short term exercise with elevated starting levels (again I haven't yet read the full text). Apparently blood-lactate kinetics can be different depending on whether the individual starts a Wingate test with a resting lactate level or a slightly elevated level. This shouldn't exactly be earthshaking news. But it's worth remembering that warmup, hydration (affects plasma level) and other considerations going into a workout session may well affect results on that session....
67 MH 6' 6"

jamesg
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 4202
Joined: March 18th, 2006, 3:44 am
Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by jamesg » December 9th, 2010, 5:45 am

These 2k races are too long to be only anaerobic (Hare), and too short to be all aerobic (Tortoise). So coaches job is to strengthen both paths.
Then the man in the stroke seat will decide what animal to be, when and how much; that the engine room behind him hasn't a clue is irrelevant.
This ability comes from vast amounts of racing under real conditions, with lots of tests over 1, 2 and 3 minutes, so the crew learns how to get going fast, cruise and then have plenty to spend in the last 500, if needed.
All coach can do on top is make sure the gearing is right and maybe shave a few blades if there's a headwind. Plus of course basic technique and hence boatspeed; without which training does not happen.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.

ccwenk
Paddler
Posts: 31
Joined: April 7th, 2006, 10:32 am

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by ccwenk » December 9th, 2010, 10:29 am

It almost sounds more like overtraining to me. Have you tried putting those kids on a forced recovery for a week or two? It sounds like they are not disciplined enough to manage their pacing.

TabbRows
2k Poster
Posts: 457
Joined: March 18th, 2006, 4:35 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by TabbRows » December 9th, 2010, 12:25 pm

I'm neither a coach nor an exercise physiologist, but reading this thread, IMHO, there's waaay toooo muuuch focus on testing in general and lactate testing specifically! These are high schoolers not Olympic athletes for crying out loud. If you're their coach, you need to have a coaching plan for the whole group and for each individual. Yo're the one that coaches and motivates and instill habits that foster the discipline to train properly. There are plenty of good periodization and race training plans out there. Probably a good forum for high school coaches to share ideas too. But IMO, you need to deemphasize the testing and its frequency and work on gettign your athletes in sync with a training regime that leads to specific goals. Otherwise, there's a tendency for young inexperienced rowers to try to "outdo" everybody everytime and they wind up leaving everything on the training floor and performing poorly when it counts.

From your description, if seems like you have the facilities, many high school and smaller colleges and even masters groups would kill for. But it's up to you to make the most of these with the population of rowers you have in th emost effective manner. I don't think using lactate testing on a continual basis is the way to accomplish this. Others mileage may vary.
M 64 76 kg

"Sit Down! Row Hard! Go Nowhere!"

ausrwr
2k Poster
Posts: 288
Joined: December 18th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by ausrwr » December 9th, 2010, 2:42 pm

I think the idea of lactate testing and personalising the program to the individual is a great idea! Surely the idea of mchases's lactate testing is to set baselines and specific training programs for all athletes to play with and for all of them to gain as much as possible...

Nosmo
10k Poster
Posts: 1595
Joined: November 21st, 2006, 3:39 pm

Re: Is there such a thing as Too Anaerobic?

Post by Nosmo » December 9th, 2010, 3:29 pm

How about looking at percentage of power also? You already have the 2K time. You can work off a percentage of that. For the everyday long rows you probably want them to be about 85 percent of 2K speed (NOT POWER). Do you have any longer tests, preferably at least 10K? If not then why not give them one or better yet a 60 minute test. You would then see how close their everyday workouts are to their max. You could set the range of their 60 minute workouts paces to something like their 10K test + 6 to 12 seconds, or their 60 minute test pace + 4 to 10 seconds. Add 2 to 3 seconds for the 90 minute workout.
Doing a long test will let you know how close to their maximum they are. More importantly it will show them. You can give them some articles or web links that explain what relative intensity they should be working at, and that they should not be working too hard on these.

Post Reply