Rojabo Training

[rayg1]

So I just did the endurance test and here is how it went:

Made it to 26 strokes per minute with 2:08 left on the clock. It was rather strange though because my body began to do some werid things, my target watts at 26 SPM was 254, at times a stroke would dip to 230 something and then shoot up to 270+ with the next stroke as I tried to compensate. So, while I didn't die off like I thought I would, my strokes became too inconsistent and I decided to stop the test there. I hope I did the right thing.

Either way, Rojabo claims I have a Rojabo Index of 251, actual max of 7:04 for a 2K and a potential max of 6:39 for a 2K. These times seem a bit fast to me but I will trust the Danes and go ahead with the program. Who knows, they may be right as my 2K PB of 7:24 was set back in September and I had only been rowing for 2 weeks. I haven't tested my 2K since.

Either way 7:04 and 6:39 scare me a bit but here goes nothing. Thanks for all your support guys! I will continue to post updates in this thread as my training goes on.

[NavigationHazard]

Good on you for going through with it! You can always recalibrate with another endurance test should you find the workouts too taxing. Alternatively, you can tweak your profile to maybe give yourself more recovery time between sessions.

[sander]

Good score, well done! It shows you can be much faster than your current 2K time.

Try rowing a 2K in 30spm, constant split of 1:46 from start to finish. Also, I think you should be able to cross the 8k line in 30 minutes.

Good luck with the training and keep posting.

Sander

[mikvan52]

Ok, I'll bite...
It will be fun to try this for 30 days...
I did the "Power Test" this evening

POWER TEST RESULTS

based on that alone.. the prediction is for me to be able to do 6:18 (don't think so!)
The software must need the 4' step test before it becomes accurate.

I hope to do that part on Saturday...

[sander]

Ok, I'll bite...


based on that alone.. the prediction is for me to be able to do 6:18 (don't think so!)
The software must need the 4' step test before it becomes accurate.

I hope to do that part on Saturday...

6:18 potential max or actual max?

I find it more important that the site manages to produce a training program that is doable but challenging.
The 6:18 max I think is based on the analysis of your stroke and an extrapolation to 38spm. Or something similar.

The rojabo index is calculated from the 4' step test results. There is no obvious relation between your 6:18 max and the rojabo index, except for the fact that both are based on your power efficiency test.

For example, my actual max improved after a month, but my rojabo index dropped because I performed worse on the step test.

[mikvan52]

Ok, I'll bite...


based on that alone.. the prediction is for me to be able to do 6:18 (don't think so!)
The software must need the 4' step test before it becomes accurate.

I hope to do that part on Saturday...

6:18 potential max or actual max?

I find it more important that the site manages to produce a training program that is doable but challenging.
The 6:18 max I think is based on the analysis of your stroke and an extrapolation to 3(6)spm. Or something similar.

The rojabo index is calculated from the 4' step test results. There is no obvious relation between your 6:18 max and the rojabo index, except for the fact that both are based on your power efficiency test.

For example, my actual max improved after a month, but my rojabo index dropped because I performed worse on the step test.

Historically, I am stranded in the 6:45-6:50 range for 2k.
The step test will probably confirm this.
A 58 year-old who weighs 160 lbs probably has little chance to break 6:40..

I just find it odd that the 6:18 number would show up at all

I can erg in the high 30's (spm) but, really, there's no point in even extrapolating from 28 spm to 36 spm... older folks don't have the VO2 max to really consider going there.
A chart of wattages generated by program algorithm (that i am now confronted with) is only 'academic' at best.

20 -- 22 -- 24 -- 26 -- 28 -- 30 -- 32 -- 34 -- 36 --
221 - 244 -268 -292 - 316 - 340 -364 - 289 - 414

Inherently speaking: there is no way any 58 yr old lwt human has a hope of doing the 34 & 36 spm 4' segments.
I ask: Why,then, is it even listed?
289 watts (34 spm) is 1:36 pace
414 watts (36 spm) is 1:34 pace.... IOW 1:35 pace avg = a 6:20 2k... The WR is a full 18 sec. slower.

AND: If I could finish the prior 8 minutes, I would have just done a 6:37 2k.
IMO: Not reasonable...as it's also under the WR fr 55-59 lights...

My point is that this "test" is designed for me to only get to the 26 to 28 spm level... This confuses me.
I would think that to take advantage of "rate for pace" erging, that I should have some expectation of rowing at higher rates... to train for race day at Crash-B.... THis is what my prior training has consisted of.
What do you think?

I know I have to be patient to wait and see. There could be a breakthrough in a basic concept that I am missing here.
I am not discouraged. It's fun to see something new after 10 million meters of flogging the erg.

[NavigationHazard]

You will get what you call rate-for-pace workouts. What they won't be is 'traditional' repeat intervals at constant rating. Instead they'll involve sessions like 2 x (10min + 5min)/4 spm: 20/22, or 2 x (6min + 3min + 2min + 1min)/4, spm: 20/24/26/30 (my Wednesday scheduled workout). These sorts of workouts cycle you through a range of paces and ratings. As a rule the higher the rating at any given fitness level in your training the less the required duration at that rating. The closer you get to a race or trial, the more emphasis there will be on quality.

There are likely to be occasional anomalies in your workouts. This is because we all bring individual physiologies as well as temperaments and goals to the erg. By way of example, on Wed 12/15 I'm theoretically supposed to shatter the standing 50-59 MHW 6k record in the course of a 25-minute row - at 24 spm. Trust me, that isn't going to happen and I'm not likely to come close. But you should find most of what you're asked to do ... doable as well as purposeful.

It'll be worth your while to read through the 'definitions' in the 'About' section of the Rojabo website. There's some useful info there about things like warmups and rest intervals.

[sander]

Mike,

The no-tests-required part of rojabo site http://www.rojabo.com/about/no-tests-required predicts that you will reach 24spm with 0:28 remaining. I assumed a 6:45 at 28spm which produced a wattages chart close to yours.

I think you can reach 28spm in that test ... so give it a go!

[dchurbuck]

Some beginner's questions (in day two of the Rojabo trial).

Warm-up: "Warm-up is recommended to contain 2-3 km rowing with a pace 10%-20% below your target from your power guide. Do a pyramid, 10/10 + 20/20 + 30/30 + 20/20 + 10/10 stroke/stroke off at at spm 24/28/32/36/max – try hit the target from your power guide."

What is the "target from your power guide?" My power guide spells out 9 different targets for 9 different rates. Should the warmup consist only of the specified pyramids, or is it a single pyramid fit somewhere into the overall warmup? Are the pyramid paces "10 - 20%" less than the power guide paces?

OTW rowers are given a 2-4K cool-down piece. What about erg users? I find if I begin and end the session with a 3K warm-up/cool-down I end up with total meters in the 10K range which seems like plenty of work and erg-time. The specific workouts seem very brief but nevertheless challenging -- with my heart rate hitting 160 by the end of ten minutes of 20/22 spm work.

Row-Pro: any recommendations on how to build Rojabo workouts in RowPro? I am having a devil of a time building custom workouts with pace targets, especially between pieces calling for say 3 minutes at 20 spm then 2 minutes at 22 spm with no rest in between the two pieces. RowPro wants to insert a minimum of a 20 second "rest" between the two pieces, rather than change the rating within the work segment.

Re-tests: looking at my three week training plan I see no tests. I finally discovered ... somewhere ... I can't find it again, the directions to repeat one of the tests every month and the other every three months (someone needs to write a comprehensive Rojabo guide, the site is making me want to pull out my hair, thank heavens for this thread). Should I be testing more frequently in the beginning to get a more accurate training plan? The initial tests indicated a 2K actual max 12 seconds slower than my current best, but was pretty accurate in predicting a potential 2k time in keeping with my best historical effort.

Training time: I see I could specify both a morning and evening workout. Will that step up the intensity and accelerate gains or is the same as a one-a-day workout only split between two sessions?

Thanks in advance.

[mikvan52]

Some beginner's questions

Training time: I see I could specify both a morning and evening workout. Will that step up the intensity and accelerate gains or is the same as a one-a-day workout only split between two sessions?

There is a school of thought that suggest NOT increasing training load more than 10% each year... once you are beyond beginner status.

I feel this is wise.

I believe two a days (and three a days) take some years to get acclimated to... Nav'Haz fer instance...
I cannot do them month in-month out.. I used to be able to when I was under 38 years old.

[sander]

Some beginner's questions (in day two of the Rojabo trial).

Warm-up: "Warm-up is recommended to contain 2-3 km rowing with a pace 10%-20% below your target from your power guide. Do a pyramid, 10/10 + 20/20 + 30/30 + 20/20 + 10/10 stroke/stroke off at at spm 24/28/32/36/max – try hit the target from your power guide."

I never do this. I do technique drills, and a few 3+10 stroke sprints, the rest easy rowing. At least 10 minutes.

OTW rowers are given a 2-4K cool-down piece. What about erg users? I find if I begin and end the session with a 3K warm-up/cool-down I end up with total meters in the 10K range which seems like plenty of work and erg-time. The specific workouts seem very brief but nevertheless challenging -- with my heart rate hitting 160 by the end of ten minutes of 20/22 spm work.

I do 5 minutes when I am in a hurry but I prefer longer, around 2-4km. Don't underestimate the importance of those "easy" meters. They do help your fitness as well.

Re-tests: looking at my three week training plan I see no tests. I finally discovered ... somewhere ... I can't find it again, the directions to repeat one of the tests every month and the other every three months (someone needs to write a comprehensive Rojabo guide, the site is making me want to pull out my hair, thank heavens for this thread). Should I be testing more frequently in the beginning to get a more accurate training plan? The initial tests indicated a 2K actual max 12 seconds slower than my current best, but was pretty accurate in predicting a potential 2k time in keeping with my best historical effort.

After a month, rojabo stopped putting trainings on the plan, and it asked me to re-test. So I did, and in return rojabo gave me a new few weeks of trainings. Agree on the site, it's sometimes difficult to find info.

Training time: I see I could specify both a morning and evening workout. Will that step up the intensity and accelerate gains or is the same as a one-a-day workout only split between two sessions?

I don't really know. I don't have time to train twice a day. When I increase from 3 to 4 to 5 trainings per week, the total nr of strokes went up accordingly, and so did the gain accelerate. I guess at some point it will stop and the program will start inserting technique/recovery paddles.

I only see "D" and "C" sessions in the coming weeks. In the previous month, I had mostly "C" sessions and also some "B". I have never seen an "A" session in my plan. I presume that at a low number of trainings per week the plan sticks to the essential considering your fitness level. With more sessions per week, the variety might go up. But that's just speculation. Also, my next "event" is months away. I expect more speed work in the future, and a taper in the weeks before. Perhaps the rojabo veterans can enlighten me?

[mikvan52]

Mike,

The no-tests-required part of rojabo site http://www.rojabo.com/about/no-tests-required predicts that you will reach 24spm with 0:28 remaining. I assumed a 6:45 at 28spm which produced a wattages chart close to yours.

Interesting.

I, too, looked at the "no-tests-required" using my race rate = 32 spm and then adjusted the 2k time until I came up with wattages that matched my power test I did yesterday. I thought this might be a way of estimating my potential for a best 2k.
Here's what I cam up with:
32 spm - 2k - 6:38 -
endurance test predicted to finish at 26 spm w/1:45 remaining...

I wonder if it is improper to use their paradigms this way.
Again: 6:38 is 7 seconds faster than my 6:45.1 I did at Crash-b when is was 55.

We'll see...
I'll try to get through the endurance test as far as possible... sometime soon.

= Mike

[NavigationHazard]

I think the A/B/C/D/E designations for workouts refer to average stroke rating. I've got a "C" workout coming up, for example, that's 2 x (3min + 2min + 1min + 30sec)/3, spm: 24/26/30/34. The average rating is 26.3, assuming I hit the targets.

Warm-up is recommended to contain 2-3 km rowing with a pace 10%-20% below your target from your power guide. Do a pyramid, 10/10 + 20/20 + 30/30 + 20/20 + 10/10 stroke/stroke off at at spm 24/28/32/36/max – try hit the target from your power guide.

I read this as 'row a warmup containing a pyramid such that the average pace in the pyramid is 10-20% less than your target pace. Thus if you're supposed to be doing 1:40 r24 and 1:37 r28, etc. (to make the numbers easier), start the pyramid after maybe 1k worth of loosening-up paddle. Start with 10 strokes at 1:40 r24 (25 seconds on, 125m) followed by 10 strokes in the range 1:51 to 2:05, followed by 20 strokes at 1:37 r28 (43 seconds on, 222m), followed by 20 strokes in the range 1:48 to 2:01, followed by whatever your targets at the other paces are and ending with a 10-stroke 'burst.' It sounds a lot more complicated and difficult than it actually is.

If you specify both a morning and an evening workout, at mortal Rojabo indices most of the time you'll probably get one of them as an "E" (free, active recovery paddle). If you're a Danish international you're probably fine with two-a-days.

Finally, on 'prediction': IMO the only 'bulletproof,' 100% accurate 2k predictor is a 2k. Everything else will be -- and can only be -- an approximation. It's fine to have targets in mind, maybe even necessary. But the only way to know for sure how you'll stack up is to put yourself to the test.

[Bob S.]

Finally, on 'prediction': IMO the only 'bulletproof,' 100% accurate 2k predictor is a 2k. Everything else will be -- and can only be -- an approximation. It's fine to have targets in mind, maybe even necessary. But the only way to know for sure how you'll stack up is to put yourself to the test.

Jonathon,

The catch is that it only applies when you have done an efficient, properly paced 2k. In my own case, I can do my best possible 2k at home and still not know what pace I should shoot for when I compete at sea level at LB or Boston. Last season there was over 15s difference.

Bob S.

[mikvan52]

IMO the only 'bulletproof,' 100% accurate 2k predictor is a 2k. Everything else will be -- and can only be -- an approximation. It's fine to have targets in mind, maybe even necessary. But the only way to know for sure how you'll stack up is to put yourself to the test.

My feeling exactly.

but... if a program is training you for a specific time.. the tests (such as Rojabo's) are meant to accurately assess your potential... or are they?

It could be that there are so many avenues to the same result that it really doesn't matter.
I don't know.... ... for sure....

Look at the guy* w/a WRs for 2k (75-79)... all he does is row one 2k flat out each and every day...


*HWT Stephen Rounds U.S.A. 7:22.3 2005