Ranger's training thread

[hjs]

SPI (watts/rating) is impossible to maintain as rate goes up in part because of the non-linear relationship involved in calculating watts.

Balderdash.

Everyone who rows well does it.

It is built right into the pace and rate schedule for the IP plan.

ranger

Up untill some point yes, but only if you use a spi at lower rates that gives enough room to row faster at higher rate.
If you only can take short rows before you need a break this is certainly not something that has room to spare, you moter hqas no spare power to row faster.
You have proven that 6 years in a row now. Birc will be 100% in line with those years. Although I don,t think you dare to show up.


ps Why do you always lie?

[aharmer]

Since ranger's monitor is working again, and he is now doing daily workouts that are actually measureable and postable, and he promised to post them once he started doing them, I wonder why we haven't seen a screenshot from this morning's session.

Would it be fair to say that a guy who was going to pull 6:20 in less than 3 weeks would be able to pull a 1k in 3:10 today? I wonder if ranger would be willing to throw out a 3:10 screenshot with 100m increments just to keep our interest for the next couple weeks.

[hjs]

Since ranger's monitor is working again, and he is now doing daily workouts that are actually measureable and postable, and he promised to post them once he started doing them, I wonder why we haven't seen a screenshot from this morning's session.

Would it be fair to say that a guy who was going to pull 6:20 in less than 3 weeks would be able to pull a 1k in 3:10 today? I wonder if ranger would be willing to throw out a 3:10 screenshot with 100m increments just to keep our interest for the next couple weeks.

tut tut tut

Don,t take his words literally, he is a "poet" after all

Pulling 6.20 is a poem, not erging for 6 minutes and 20 seconds, it's art and the outcome is still unclear. The name of the poem is "pulling 6.20"

The outcome can be everything ranging from not showing up, boozing up with his son, sitting in the stands with a not ready stroke, frozen feet, balloning up in the plane, to many snowflakes on antartica, sudden reading on the northpole etc...........

[mikvan52]

As a general principle, you can't row as far/long at a given spi and a high rating as you can at the same spi and a lower rating. I admit it's possible to construct counterexamples. But any and all of those will involve the manipulation of the starting spi to create the illusion of holding power output per stroke constant. If you're anywhere close to as hard as you can, it simply cannot be done.

(snip)
Go ahead. prove me wrong. Row a 500m piece flat out r20. Compute your spi. Now try to row that spi for 500m at r50. It cannot be done.

It can be fun... here's an example of playing w/spi
Fun and Games
with spi

#1 Get good and warmed up... No Rich, not 10 strokes... at least 20 minutes of varied rowing

#2: erg at 20 spm and pull as hard as you can but at a steady pace... IOW: a power of 40 strokes... even pace... very hard...

(I did this after erging for 40' the other day... I could maintain 40 strokes at 20 spm and 1:50 pace. This works out to an spi of over 13.

#3 next: Erg open high rate for approx. 2 minutes... See what spi you get...
(I have never gone under 1:30.0 as a 55-59 erg-a-lete. Yet, even if I rowed 1:28 at 40 spm what would my spi be?

Look at this graphic:


I would only "score" 12.84
IOW ... less than 13.


This is just troll repartee anyway
In the last 5 years ranger has never posted an IND_V of 80 strokes at over 500 watts and never will.


Bonus Game:

Set max drag.
warm -up very thoroughly.
Set monitor on watts
Erg 10 sec on, 50 seconds off.
Note what your highest watts are for "your best stroke"
Calculate the spi...
Ask yourself: "How valuable is this spi figure?"
Now you are thinking like ranger...

[NavigationHazard]

And did my feet in record time
Stomp upon England's lightweights green?
And was the wooly Hat of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did my countenance divine
Shine forth upon your clouded hills?
And was my 2k row-ed there
Among your dark satanic mills?

Bring me my shorts of burning gold!
Bring me my dial of desire!
Bring me my sprack: O back unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from metal fight;
Tho' shall my finger swell in my hand
Till I have beat Roy Brook again
In England's green and pleasant land.

-- Ranger Blake, "Jerusalem."

From the UK Forum, 2007. Worth resurrecting.....

[bellboy]

Luckily, tenure protects both education and my actions as an educator from naive students, crass administrators, jealous colleagues, and, I suppose, uninformed citizens acting on the basis of low motives, such as yourself, who undermine the interests and values of education, such as it is, and such as it always will be.
ranger

Ha, love it. I struck a nerve. Substitute "unions" for the word tenure, except tenure does nothing to protect education. All it does is protect those who aren't intrinsically motivated enough to do a good job from getting the ax.

Tenure keeps someone like me from getting the ax?

Indeed it does.

But then again, if we didn't have tenure in higher education, it would become _Lord of the Flies_, as we now already have in secondary education, due to leftist schools of education, which believe that students should get what they want, and if they do, the teaching is good.

Stupid stuff.

ranger

I have never agreed with you before but you are spot on with this one.

[bellboy]

And did my feet in record time
Stomp upon England's lightweights green?
And was the wooly Hat of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did my countenance divine
Shine forth upon your clouded hills?
And was my 2k row-ed there
Among your dark satanic mills?

Bring me my shorts of burning gold!
Bring me my dial of desire!
Bring me my sprack: O back unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from metal fight;
Tho' shall my finger swell in my hand
Till I have beat Roy Brook again
In England's green and pleasant land.

-- Ranger Blake, "Jerusalem."

From the UK Forum, 2007. Worth resurrecting.....

I am going to be singing this on saturday at Twickers and now i shall have to shake these new lyrics out of my swede.Aaaaaaargh!

[luckylindy]

My only personal example is a 500 time trial I did (I know, very scientific </sarcasm>). At 28-30spm, I could maintain 1:28/500 for ~300m. However, when I tried again at 35-40spm, I could not even hit 1:28 until I slowed down the spm. The idea of maintaining the same approximate power output / stroke across a varied SPM range seems illogical, but maybe I'm missing something.

That's a Very impressive effort as you are so new to erging. What are your stats LL? age, weight, height etc.

That 01:28/500 for ~300m shows a fair bit of potential.

36, 175-180 lbs, 6'1".

[Byron Drachman]

Luckily, tenure protects both my salary and pension.

I missed this gem.

There is nothing protected in a (403b) TIAA-CREF retirement fund.

Typical investors with that plan have some money in TIAA and the rest in CREF. TIAA is supposed to be the safe investment. The ten year average for TIAA is about six percent but the current rates for TIAA are around three percent. The TIAA funds are guaranteed by TIAA but no federal agency. In other words, they will pay if they can. There are no limits to the fees they can charge. Until now the fees have been low but nothing prevents them from increasing to help cover losses. Once money is put into TIAA, it is stuck there for a long time. You can take it out over a ten year period.

CREF behaves as the stock market does. It is volatile and the ten year average is less than one percent. Nobody even pretends that money is protected.

Until about 2000 any allocation in TIAA-CREF did very well, as most other retirement plans did.

Over the last ten years growth in a TIAA-CREF account has been mainly due to TIAA growth and the double matching funds the university contributes along with the deductions from salary that are put into the account.

I'm not sure what this has to do with indoor rowing and training, but since Ranger sometimes brings this up it must be relevant.

[ranger]

SPI (watts/rating) is impossible to maintain as rate goes up in part because of the non-linear relationship involved in calculating watts.

The basic C2 formula for watts is 2.8*( 1/((elapsed time in seconds/distance in meters)^3)). Let's say you row 1000m in 3:30 and take 70 strokes to do it. Plugging those values into the watts formula you get 2.8* (1/(210/1000)^3)) = 2.8*(1/(.21^3)) = 2.8*(1/.009261) = 2.8*107.9797 = 302.3 watts. Your rating is 60/(elapsed time in seconds/strokes) = 60/(210/70) = 60/3 = 20.0. SPI therefore is 302.3/20.0 = 15.1.

Now consider trying to row another 1000m at spi 15.1 and rate 30 spm. You're going to need not 302.3 watts but 453 watts (15.1 * 30). That's equivalent to a pace of 1:31.75, or a 1k time of 3:03.5. You'll be rowing about 9% faster in terms of pace. And you'll have to produce roughly 50% more wattage to do so.

Nothing odd about this at all.

If you are a big heavyweight, 1K, 1:45 @ 20 spm, should barely fluster your heart, perhaps getting it up to 120 bpm. You wouldn't even be warmed up yet when you got to 1K. Your HR would still be rising up to UT2, 150 bpm or so, which you would probably reach after another K or two and and then could hold, if you row well, for another hour or two.

On the other hand, if you row well and are a big heavyweight, 1K @ 30 spm, pulling 15 SPI, might get your heart thumping very nicely, perhaps just shy of max somewhere, 180-190 bpm.

Nonetheless, the rows could indeed be done keeping your stroking power constant and therefore your technique in place.

In fact, I think this would be preferable, if you row well.

The only question about this artificial exercise is why someone would want to do UT2 rowing for only 1K with a heart rate that doesn't even have time to get to UT2.

That difficulty has nothing to do with SPI or rowing more generally, I am afraid. It is just a product of the poster who made up the odd example.

ranger

[ranger]

Luckily, tenure protects both my salary and pension.

I missed this gem.

There is nothing protected in a (403b) TIAA-CREF retirement fund.

Typical investors with that plan have some money in TIAA and the rest in CREF. TIAA is supposed to be the safe investment. The ten year average for TIAA is about six percent but the current rates for TIAA are around three percent. The TIAA funds are guaranteed by TIAA but no federal agency. In other words, they will pay if they can. There are no limits to the fees they can charge. Until now the fees have been low but nothing prevents them from increasing to help cover losses. Once money is put into TIAA, it is stuck there for a long time. You can take it out over a ten year period.

CREF behaves as the stock market does. It is volatile and the ten year average is less than one percent. Nobody even pretends that money is protected.

Until about 2000 any allocation in TIAA-CREF did very well, as most other retirement plans did.

Over the last ten years growth in a TIAA-CREF account has been mainly due to TIAA growth and the double matching funds the university contributes along with the deductions from salary that are put into the account.

I'm not sure what this has to do with indoor rowing and training, but since Ranger sometimes brings this up it must be relevant.

I didn't say it. Snowleopard did, parading it as my quote.

Sure, nothing is absolutely protected by tenure, even jobs. If whole departments are eliminated, tenured professors lose their jobs. This is now happening. NYU at Albany, as I understand, just eliminated Classics, Comparative Literature, Romance Languages, and a handful of other departments. Our English Department has also discussed many times whether we will be eliminated, sooner or later. Many of my colleagues teach "cultural studies," not English Language and Literature. If the whole department did the same, that might be grounds for eliminating it. The University already has departments/schools that deal with cultural studies--anthropology, history, philosophy, sociology, political science, music, art, dance, etc.

ranger

[ranger]

Row a 500m piece flat out r20. Compute your spi. Now try to row that spi for 500m at r50. It cannot be done

No reason to row 500r20, flat out.

So the example is nonsense.

ranger

[ThatMoos3Guy]

Row a 500m piece flat out r20. Compute your spi. Now try to row that spi for 500m at r50. It cannot be done

No reason to row 500r20, flat out.

So the example is nonsense.

ranger

I agree with you on that example, however many clubs do a 30minute rate 20 test. Would you use the same SPI for that as a HM at rate 20?

[ranger]

In the last 5 years ranger has never posted an IND_V of 80 strokes at over 500 watts and never will

I am not sure why you are futzing with 80 strokes, but I would only need 65 strokes or so for a 500m @ 46 spm (1:23 @ 13 SPI).

That is close to 600 watts, not 500 watts.

I would need 110 strokes or so for a 1K (1:32 @ 36 spm, 12.5 SPI).

That's only 450 watts.

You miss these standards for 500m and 1K by in and around seven seconds per 500m.

ranger

[ranger]

Up untill some point yes, but only if you use a spi at lower rates that gives enough room to row faster at higher rate.
If you only can take short rows before you need a break this is certainly not something that has room to spare, you moter hqas no spare power to row faster.

I gave up rowing with breaks a year or so ago.

I can now do 90min, 1:49 @ 22 spm, with a UT2 HR at 120 df.

That predicts a 6:16 2K.

A row of this sort has nothing to do with RWBs, which was done at max drag, 14-16 SPI, and a AT HR, over shorter intervals.

1:49 @ 22 spm is 12.2 SPI, a pretty light stroke, if you row well, as I now do, especially if it is done at low drag (120 df.).

The ratio is 4-to-1!

ranger