Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 8:27 am

H2O wrote:@Ranger:

"If it turns out that I am now doing..."
"If it happens to occur that I can comfortably hold 1:35 to 1700m ..."

Surely you must examine your capabilities in some sort or fashion since otherwise you won't be able to pace yourself.
What indications from actually rowed pieces do you have that lead you to believe that you might be able to
hold say 1.37.5 for 2K?
"Pieces" aren't the issue in training for rowing.

What you can do in terms of pace on "pieces" is entirely derivative.

Relative to your training, the most important thing in rowing is your power per stroke, you "natural stroking power."

Your natural stroking power is a measure of how well you row.

Everyone does a 2K right around their natural stroking power.

And, by and large, those the same age, weight, and level of training row a 2K at right around the same rate.

So!

The rower with the stronger stroke wins.

At BIRC 2010, I'll rate 33 spm.

If they are well trained, as I am, most of the others in my age and weight division (55s lwts) will rate the same.

Today I was pulling up over 14 SPI, a full 50% stronger than the best 55s/60s lwts, who usually pull around 9.5 SPI for 2K.

Delighted with this.

Dynamite stuff.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 8:34 am

Hey.

Has anyone ever tried sweep rowing OTErg--alternating sides?

That's what I am doing now.

Great stuff.

No reason to think of the erg as a 1x, or even as any possible boat.

I get much more power doing a sweep stroke than a stroke that would be appropriate for a 1x, and the ability to alternate sides OTErg reduces the effort, so that rowing becomes something like kayaking or paddling, where you can use both sides, at will, resting one side while you are using the other.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 9:01 am

mrfit wrote:19 MPS. That's haulin' 42 mph.
:D :D

Sorry for the typo.

Just MPH, of course.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ginster » October 25th, 2010, 9:18 am

ranger wrote:
"Pieces" aren't the issue in training for rowing.

What you can do in terms of pace on "pieces" is entirely derivative.

Relative to your training, the most important thing in rowing is your power per stroke, you "natural stroking power."

Your natural stroking power is a measure of how well you row.
please define, in measurable, objective terms, "natural stroking power"

I want to know how I can derive a similar set of virtual PB's

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Byron Drachman » October 25th, 2010, 11:00 am

Ranger wrote: Has anyone ever tried sweep rowing OTErg?
Last edited by Byron Drachman on October 25th, 2010, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 11:07 am

ginster wrote:
please define, in measurable, objective terms, "natural stroking power"

I want to know how I can derive a similar set of virtual PB's
Natural stroking power is just the watts you normally pull on each stroke.

For any given rower, a natural stroking power is pretty stable across the rates and paces.

For instance, my natural stroking power now is 12-13 SPI, which a norm in the middle of this range, around 12.5 SPI.

So, just rowing naturally, I do 1:50 @ 21 spm, 1:48 @ 22 spm, 1:46 @ 23 spm, 1:45 @ 24 spm, and so forth, right up (and beyond) 1:35 @ 33 spm, my race rate and pace.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ginster » October 25th, 2010, 11:13 am

ranger wrote:
ginster wrote:
please define, in measurable, objective terms, "natural stroking power"

I want to know how I can derive a similar set of virtual PB's
Natural stroking power is just the watts you normally pull on each stroke.

For any given rower, a natural stroking power is pretty stable across the rates and paces.

For instance, my natural stroking power now is 12-13 SPI, which a norm in the middle of this range, around 12.5 SPI.

So, just rowing naturally, I do 1:50 @ 21 spm, 1:48 @ 22 spm, 1:46 @ 23 spm, 1:45 @ 24 spm, and so forth, right up (and beyond) 1:35 @ 33 spm, my race rate and pace.

ranger

I'm sorry, I may be a bit simple for this - but work with me... if I pull at say 20spm.... how fast I go depends on how long I have to maintain that pace for . how do I work out my natural stroking power.... what distances should I be able to go at my "natural stroking power"?

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by jliddil » October 25th, 2010, 11:29 am

ginster wrote:
ranger wrote:
ginster wrote:
please define, in measurable, objective terms, "natural stroking power"

I want to know how I can derive a similar set of virtual PB's
Natural stroking power is just the watts you normally pull on each stroke.

For any given rower, a natural stroking power is pretty stable across the rates and paces.

For instance, my natural stroking power now is 12-13 SPI, which a norm in the middle of this range, around 12.5 SPI.

So, just rowing naturally, I do 1:50 @ 21 spm, 1:48 @ 22 spm, 1:46 @ 23 spm, 1:45 @ 24 spm, and so forth, right up (and beyond) 1:35 @ 33 spm, my race rate and pace.

ranger

I'm sorry, I may be a bit simple for this - but work with me... if I pull at say 20spm.... how fast I go depends on how long I have to maintain that pace for . how do I work out my natural stroking power.... what distances should I be able to go at my "natural stroking power"?
you so funny
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Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 12:47 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote: Has anyone ever tried sweep rowing OTErg?
Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote: I get much more power doing a sweep stroke than a stroke that would be appropriate for a 1x
Yea.

Great stuff.

You can do it on the erg, too, though.

At the catch, you just need to extend one arm further than the other, rotate your body around to the side of the opposing arm, and drive more firmly off of your opposing leg.

Then do the same thing on the other side on the next stroke.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ausrwr » October 25th, 2010, 12:49 pm

ranger wrote:Hey.

Has anyone ever tried sweep rowing OTErg--alternating sides?

That's what I am doing now.

Great stuff.

No reason to think of the erg as a 1x, or even as any possible boat.

I get much more power doing a sweep stroke than a stroke that would be appropriate for a 1x, and the ability to alternate sides OTErg reduces the effort, so that rowing becomes something like kayaking or paddling, where you can use both sides, at will, resting one side while you are using the other.

ranger
You know nothing about a sweep stroke, let's be honest. As usual, you're just making it up. Like the much vaunted 'Danish Lightweight Stroke (TM)". And what happened to the idea that you've done all the technical work and don't need to change anything?

This is just a cue for a whole bunch of excuses which will be forthcoming from you on why you weren't able to pull anywhere near your ambit claims at BIRC or CRASH-Bs. Or at least you slamming the drag back up and rowing like arse.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 12:57 pm

ginster wrote:I'm sorry, I may be a bit simple for this - but work with me... if I pull at say 20spm.... how fast I go depends on how long I have to maintain that pace for . how do I work out my natural stroking power.... what distances should I be able to go at my "natural stroking power"?
That's not my experience at all.

If you just row naturally, taking a full stroke, neither overpulling or easing up, how far you can go depends on your rate, and the stroking power remains pretty much constant.

If you are in good shape, at your natural stroking power, you should be able to row for half a day (100K?) at 20 spm.

The ratio approaches 5-to-1.

You do a brief, normal action.

Then you get to rest a long time.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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On sweep rowing

Post by Byron Drachman » October 25th, 2010, 1:01 pm

I don't get to do much sweep rowing myself but I know enough to say it is also great fun if you are in a boat with good rowers and it is a torture session if you are in a boat with bad rowers. Here is an amusing saying I wrote down:
David Goldstrum during broadcast of World Cup at Poznan, 2008 wrote:Sculling is the superior sport. Rowing with one oar is for the clumsy ones.

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Re: On sweep rowing

Post by Bob S. » October 25th, 2010, 1:04 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:I don't get to do much sweep rowing myself but I know enough to say it is also great fun if you are in a boat with good rowers and it is a torture session if you are in a boat with bad rowers. Here is an amusing saying I wrote down:
David Goldstrum during broadcast of World Cup at Poznan, 2008 wrote:Sculling is the superior sport. Rowing with one oar is for the clumsy ones.
Ouch!

Bob S.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 1:38 pm

ausrwr wrote: And what happened to the idea that you've done all the technical work and don't need to change anything?
Yes, the use of a sweep stroke on the erg is a significant change.

But that being said, it doesn't accomplish anything that I haven't already been doing, or at least trying to do.

It just does these things more automatically and necessarily, so that I don't have to think about them and/or correct them when I backslide into bad habits.

What are these things?

(1) If you use a sweep stroke motion on the erg, you necessarily relax the shoulder that you rotate and reach with.

(2) By relaxing the shoulder you reach with, you get more length on your drive with the longer arms.

(3) When you reach across your body in this way, you naturally increase your compression at the catch with your legs, lengthening your stroke even further.

(4) Reaching across your body in this way also takes time, and given that this time is late in the recovery, it naturally encourages more compression with your legs, too. It increases your slide control at the catch.

(5) When you reach across your body in this way at the catch, you naturally roll up onto the balls of your feet. You _can't_ stay on your heels. This lengthens your stroke even further and puts your feet in a better position for the drive.

(6) When you drive from this rotated position, the leverage between the extended arm and the opposing foot/leg is heightened and becomes more direct. As as result, you get a quicker and more powerful catch.

(7) With your body rotated at the catch, the contrast between (a) the time you spend on the balls of your feet at the catch and (b) the time you spend on your heels in the center of the drive (and then back on the balls of your feet at the finish when you point your toes) is emphasized. Personally, I am on the balls of my feet at the catch until I rotate my body so that it is square. Then I set my heels and swing my back (and then finish with my arms).

(8) While you can't do this in a boat, you can sweep row on both sides, in any combination of strokes--changing sides every stroke, every other stroke, etc. That is, you can create flexible patterns of relief/rest for yourself by resting one side of your body while you use the other.

I find all of this _very_ useful.

Most, if not all, of these things just accentuate what I have been doing, or at least trying to do, anyway, over the last seven years in order to improve my technique and increase my stroking power.

Over the last couple of days, for whatever complex of reasons, I have found that using a sweep stroke of this sort can give me as much as one SPI more power.

For example, instead of pulling 12.5 SPI, I find myself pulling 13.5 SPI.

Or whatever.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on October 25th, 2010, 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: On sweep rowing

Post by ranger » October 25th, 2010, 1:41 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:I don't get to do much sweep rowing myself but I know enough to say it is also great fun if you are in a boat with good rowers and it is a torture session if you are in a boat with bad rowers. Here is an amusing saying I wrote down:
David Goldstrum during broadcast of World Cup at Poznan, 2008 wrote:Sculling is the superior sport. Rowing with one oar is for the clumsy ones.
Sure.

But at the moment, I am just talking about the erg, not boats at all.

I am asking this:

What kind of motion on the erg can generate the most quickness, endurance, relaxation, efficiency, etc., and therefore easy and sustainable power?

A motion that is closer to sculling, or a motion that is closer to sweep rowing?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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