Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

BTW, rowing at 78 df. and 17 SPI, you are in an amazing 4-to-1 ratio at 20 spm.

That becomes 3-to-1 at 28 spm.

And then 2-to-1 at 34 spm.

Relax between each stroke!

The ratios are big.

They give you a lot of rest, if you can learn to take advantage of them.

ranger

[ranger]

Before Sunday, maybe I can get Byron or my wife to get some video of me doing 1:58 @ 28 spm (7.5SPI) in the Windhover, using my (ahem) "perfect" stroke.

It is fall break here at the University of Michigan.

So my time schedule and daily routine is a little more flexible for a week or so.

So this sarcastic outburst was uncalled for, then?:

Tomorrow and Saturday, Byron.

I teach today, 10 a.m.-3 p.m.

You know, a job?

Say what?

I indeed have a job.

I did indeed teach yesterday, and not just to 10-3, adding student conferences, from 9-5.

I prepared for class from 4 a.m.-9 a.m.

So, I worked about 13 hours, from 4 a.m. to 5 p.m.

ranger

[hjs]

Our force curves are _very_ similar in shape and duration.

Looks like you're also getting 125 kg.F of peak force.

ranger

No they're not similar, unless you mean in the sense that Chef Boy-ar-dee Beefaroni and Mario Battalia's tagliatelle with chicken livers and truffles both claim to be pasta dishes by Italian chefs. If they were the same shape and duration at the same rating and DF they'd produce the same paces. If you actually manage to do 1:34 r34, it'll be around 70-75% of the watts I'm producing and 8-9 seconds slower per 500m. That's because your force curve is considerably more spikey than mine, and much of its tail is close to worthless. I'll say it again. Boosting the vertical dimension of your force curve at the expense of its horizontal fullness is not just silly. At fast pace/rating combos and low drag it's especially counterproductive because the inordinate peak-force requirement prematurely overwhelms your muscles.

You are discribing my forcecurve, at faster paces it really looks silly, straight up in the sky and back

[ranger]

You are discribing my forcecurve, at faster paces it really looks silly, straight up in the sky and back

Nope.

It's gorgeous.

.55 seconds in duration, just like Nav's.

I'll get one for you.



ranger

[hjs]

Our force curves are _very_ similar in shape and duration.

Looks like you're also getting 125 kg.F of peak force.

ranger

No they're not similar, unless you mean in the sense that Chef Boy-ar-dee Beefaroni and Mario Battalia's tagliatelle with chicken livers and truffles both claim to be pasta dishes by Italian chefs. If they were the same shape and duration at the same rating and DF they'd produce the same paces. If you actually manage to do 1:34 r34, it'll be around 70-75% of the watts I'm producing and 8-9 seconds slower per 500m. That's because your force curve is considerably more spikey than mine, and much of its tail is close to worthless. I'll say it again. Boosting the vertical dimension of your force curve at the expense of its horizontal fullness is not just silly. At fast pace/rating combos and low drag it's especially counterproductive because the inordinate peak-force requirement prematurely overwhelms your muscles.

You are discribing my forcecurve, at faster paces it really looks silly, straight up in the sky and back

On lower rates and paces it looks a bit better

[ranger]

Over to you, Fraudger.

Here is the stroke used by my competition in the 55s/60s lwts.

It only gets about 90 kgF of peak force, and even so, briefly.

For most of its span, it doesn't get more than 70 kgF.

My stroke is (_waaaay_) above 70 kgF for 3/4 of its duration.

The stroke used by my cometition in the 55s/60s lwts is slower (more sluggish at the catch), longer (more work and therefore less rest), and weaker, by as much as 40% (9 SPI vs. 12-13 SPI).



ranger

[ranger]

Nav--

Of course, the main challenge you must face, up front, if you want to train with your 17 SPI stroke is that at 20 spm the pace is 1:41.

Rowing all day at 1:41, at any rate and drag, is pretty difficult for a 55-year-old, not to mention rowing all day, 1:41 @ 20 spm and 78 df.

Good luck with it.

If you try it, I suspect you might want to do some rowing with breaks for a while, just to get used to the combination of mental/nervous, skeletal-muscular, and aerobic/cardiovascular stress, before you try doing a lot of continuous rowing.

ranger

[snowleopard]

I just posted a bunch of pictures with numbers. I don't really know what the numbers mean but I have managed to impress myself to the point of being prematurely overwhelmed.

ranger,

How would you say the area under those two curves compares?

[ranger]

ranger,

How would you say the area under those two curves compares?

The area under the curves is given by the SPIs.

Nav's is 17.7 SPI; mine is 12 SPI; the third is 9 SPI.

ranger

[snowleopard]

Posted some pictures with numbers of which he doesn't know the meaning.

ranger,

How would you say the area under those two curves compares?

The area under the curves is given by the SPIs.

Could you expand on that a little please.

[ranger]

Could you expand on that a little please.

Nope.

No expansion necessary.

It's crystal clear.

Nav's stroke is almost twice as strong as the third stroke (17.7/9) and 40% stronger than mine (17.7/12).

My stroke is 33% stronger than the third stroke (12/9).

The unspoken equalizers are these:

(1) Nav is a _huge_ 55-year-old.

(2) I am a lightweight, a couple of months shy of 60, as are my competitors.

(3) So the difference in strength between Nav's stroke and mine is entirely understandable and expected. But the difference in strength between my stroke and the stroke of my competitors is baffling, outrageous.

(4) Nav can't use his stroke at the moment. It would take him about a decade of training to get used to it so he could use it in any sort of extended rowing. Actually, at the moment, Nav can only use a stroke that is just about 12 SPI like mine, and even so, he needs to use a much higher drag to make up for his lack of skill and physical capacity to get even that 12 SPI. Given his size and age, this is baffling, outrageous.

(5) I will race with my stroke at BIRC 2010 in about a month. I have already done that decade of training to get used to it. Nav hasn't. He just prepares to race. So he doesn't really train at all, trying to get better. Training is an opportunity to get better. So race preparation is not training. No one gets better by constantly preparing to race (i.e., racing their training).

(6) I have already done a quality 2K (sub-6:30) at 12 SPI and race rates, without even preparing for it, albeit at a higher drag and only 31 spm. At BIRC 2010, after another month or so of sharpening, I will pull 12 SPI for 2K at 34-36 spm and low drag (118 df.). Nav has never raced 2K at anything like 17.7 SPI and race rates, much less at low drag.

(7) So! We'll see, I guess. But if I get pretty sharp for BIRC, I think I will outrow Nav by a substantial margin. Nav might have a hard time pulling 6:30. If I am pretty sharp, I will pull around 6:20. Even though I am five years younger, a half a foot shorter, and almost 100 lbs. lighter than Nav.

ranger

[Byron Drachman]

Before Sunday, maybe I can get Byron or my wife to get some video of me doing 1:58 @ 28 spm (7.5SPI) in the Windhover, using my (ahem) "perfect" stroke

I put my camera in my bag so if we're on the river at the same time I can take some video this morning.

[ranger]

Before Sunday, maybe I can get Byron or my wife to get some video of me doing 1:58 @ 28 spm (7.5SPI) in the Windhover, using my (ahem) "perfect" stroke

I put my camera in my bag so if we're on the river at the same time I can take some video this morning.

Yea, I'll bring my camera, too.

I also have a tripod, which helps the quality of the video.

I am going to come up to Lansing in a leisurely way, though.

I am not going to race up there in the dark, as I did last time.

ranger

[hjs]

Could you expand on that a little please.

Nope.

No expansion necessary.

It's crystal clear.

Nav's stroke is almost twice as strong as the third stroke (17.7/9) and 30% stronger than mine (17.7/12).

ranger

17.7 versus 12 is NOT 30% but it is 47.5 % stronger.

I don,t know how heavy the two of you are, but you are around 80 so to be pound for pound equally strong Nav may be 118 kg. Only looking at this that is. And being heavier can,t be translated 1 on 1 to being stronger. So not only is nav absolute a lot stronger, relative he also is

[Byron Drachman]

I am not going to race up there in the dark, as I did last time.

Sunrise is 7:51. After about 7:30 it is light enough. As always, on a river with other boats it is good to wear some high visibility clothing. Other rowers, coxes, and coaches in launches appreciate it.