Ranger's training thread

[nharrigan]

Hi Prof, you didn't answer my question from the other day so I'm assuming you just missed it. I'd be really grateful if you could give me an answer if you could:

I don't know for sure, but before WIRC, I think I'll get to 20K, perhaps even to a FM, pulling 13 SPI @ 20-22 spm.

I for one will be intrigued to know how you convert your current absolute inability to row this pace and rate for 10k into an ability to row twice the distance in a matter of months. So, please do keep us informed of when this occurs. You could start by letting us know how far you get at that pace and rate at the moment. I'd say around 4k?

Lancs- That goal is somewhat achievable. 13 spi at 20 spm is only 1:51 pace, quite a retreat from his stated goals of 1:45 or so for a HM. And this is certainly much slower than a 6:30 2k erger should be capable of.

Haven't seen your blogs in a long while. Hope you are doing well.

-Neil

[ranger]

13 spi at 20 spm is only 1:51 pace, quite a retreat from his stated goals of 1:45 or so for a HM. And this is certainly much slower than a 6:30 2k erger should be capable of.

No, 1:51 @ 20 spm for a HM is not "much slower than a 6:30 erger should be capable of."

60'r20 is done at 2K + 16.

So.

60'r20 @ 1:50 predicts a 6:16 2K.

30'r20 @ 1:50 predicts a 6:30 2K.

30'r20 is done at 70% of 2K watts.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich, ergo and bike wattage are completely different.

Yes, I know.

If I can row 60min @ 1:44 OTErg, I should be able to do quite a bit better than 22.5 MPH for 60min OTBike using the Kurt Kinetic.

ranger

[ranger]

Back when my 2K was usually 6:32, I pulled 60'r20 @ 1:52.

But that was with my HR up at my anaerobic threshold.

I don't have any interest in rowing like that anymore.

If I am rowing at 20 spm, I don't want my HR to be much over 145 bpm.

UT2

1:49 @ 22 spm is UT2 for a 6:16 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

I for one will be intrigued to know how you convert your current absolute inability to row this pace and rate for 10k into an ability to row twice the distance in a matter of months

I now row perfectly (13 SPI) at low drag (118 df.).

Compared to how I used to row, this makes things like 60'r20 @ 13 SPI quite a bit easier.

The drive is shorter and quicker; the recovery, longer.

The ratio is higher: 4-to-1 (at least).

The legs do most of the work rather than the upper body.

The slide is longer.

The finish is quicker.

I used to row poorly (10 SPI) at max drag (200+ df.), and even so, I did 60'r20 @ 1:52.

Heck of a lot easier to do, though, if you row well at low drag.

ranger

[lancs]

Haven't seen your blogs in a long while. Hope you are doing well.

Hi Neil. All well here thanks. Managing some training in between various things happening at home, I just don't have time for the blog any more! Perhaps I would if I didn't spend so much time waiting for the Prof to do at least something he says he's going to do...

Hope you're keeping well too..

[Steve G]

Steve G--

Hey.

If you rack your bike up on a Kurt Kinetic, can you do 60min at 22.5 MPH, 320 watts?

In wattage, that's the equivalent of 1:43, or 17.45K.

ranger

You certainly can't. So why bother to ask about anyone else?

Rich
I just have a cheap magneto trainer, I dont worry about power etc, just use it to sharpen for TTs up and down the block minute on each ring from the middle down and back up. You can fit a lot of work into 50 minutes.
Any read out rich of your 60 minutes at that average speed?

Steve

[NavigationHazard]

Care to cite one shred of empirical evidence showing that "60' r20 is done at 2k + 14"?

Didn't think you could find a study. You utter muppet -- no one 'does' 60' r20 as a 2k predictor, or on the basis of a current 2k result. If they do it at all, it's either as a recovery row, something to do with technique, and/or as a baseline power/endurance session towards some future competitive result. As usual you have it backwards. For anyone not saddled with the burden of being you, the longer slower stuff facilitates faster stuff that comes later in a training/competition cycle. It would be much more logical to argue that a 2k can be done at 60' r20 - 14. That would be wrong too, but less so.

As for the alleged "+/- 14" relationship, that's a bunch of hooey. When Pinsent set the British 2k record of ~5:42 (1:25.5 pace), that result was about 12.3 seconds faster than his British-record 30' r20 result. If you think he could have held 1:39.5 pace r20 for a full hour (30' r20 pace + 1.7) you're insane. That's 18,090m r20. To my knowledge there have been maybe four or five people in the history of the sport who've done better for an hour at any rating. Two of them are Graham Benton (the holder at 18220m) and Mahe Drysdale (the 20-29 holder at 18128m). I'll ask Graham what he rated the next time I chat him. But I can guarantee you it was more like 26-28 than 20.

Moreover, pace comparisons like the one you're trying to assert intrinsically are invalid. As you've been told zillions of times, watts are not in a linear relationship to pace. A cubic relationship is involved in calculating them, so that the faster you go the disproportionately more watts are required....

[mrfit]

Steve, I think he's still waiting for his house to settle before he makes any readings. The KK trainer just about shocked his heart out of his chest! Toto took a crap in his basket and everything.

[ranger]

Care to cite one shred of empirical evidence showing that "60' r20 is done at 2k + 14"?

Sorry.

I should have said 60'r20 is done at 2K + 16, as is implied by my (later) claim that 60'r20 @ 1:50 predicts a 6:16/1:34 2K.

ranger

[snowleopard]

Sorry.

I should have said

No, you should just STFU because time and time again it is proven that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

[ranger]

Lancs--

You have proved to be a pretty good erger (e.g., within 20 seconds of a WR in your age and weight division), but do you have any interest in rowing more generally?

Or are you just a gym rat, getting some exercise?

Have you ever rowed OTW? Are you rowing OTW now? Do you ever intend to row OTW?

Do you have any experience with water sports--swimming, sailing, water skiing, canoeing, kayaking, surfing, fishing, etc.?

Have you ever lived on a big body of water, so that it becomes an essential part of your environment?

Have you ever considered improving your rowing technique?

Or do you just breath hard, sweat a lot, and yank the chain?

ranger

[ranger]

I just have a cheap magneto trainer, I dont worry about power etc, just use it to sharpen for TTs up and down the block minute on each ring from the middle down and back up. You can fit a lot of work into 50 minutes.
Any read out rich of your 60 minutes at that average speed?

Given this, I don't understand your dismissive comments (for weeks, months, and years now) about my biking.

Sounds like your are _waaaay_ out in the middle of Kansas with your biking.

How is it out there?

What can I do on a Kurt Kinetic?

Beats me.

I have only had it for a couple of days; I am not a biker; and I am only using it for cross-training between long bouts of (much harder) rowing OTErg and then OTW.

On the other hand, it seems that I _already_ know more about it than you.

Go figure.

Why don't you get a Kurt Kinetic and see what _you_ can do on it?

Then we can compare notes.

As I mentioned, a couple of days ago, I found myself on a long ride cruising along with a HR of 175 bpm.

Who knows?

If you try it out, perhaps you'll find the same thing.

ranger

[ranger]

no one 'does' 60' r20 as a 2k predictor

Interesting to hear, I guess, but then again, "no one" is a pretty uninteresting group of folks.

I am someone, not no one.

So what no one is doing is irrelevant to me (and you, too, I would expect).

60'r20 is a great 2K predictor.

It's done at a bit over UT2 pace, at just under UT2 rates.

And your UT2 pace is one of the best 2K predictors of all.

Great stuff.

Back when he was rowing (which he no longer seems to be doing) and set the 55s lwt WR, Rocket Roy did a HMr20 at 1:55.5.

At 2K + 16, that predicts a 2K of 1:39.5.

What is Roy's 55s lwt WR?

1:39.5.

Seems like a pretty good 2K predictor to me.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

Among other problems with your line of argument, your putative 60' r20 bears no relationship whatsoever to 2k r anything since you haven't done it OR a 2k. And to substantiate the claim that you could do it at 2k + 16, you'd have to first lay down the baseline 2k time.

As for some supposed relationship to "UT2 pace," there is no such thing as "UT2 pace." In the C2 terminology you like to misuse with abandon, training bands are determined by HR as a proxy for blood-lactate levels. It's not the pace that makes it UT or AT or whatever. It's the intensity, which is a function of pace duration frequency and rating. You can be UT2 at 2:00 r16 for the last 30' of a two hour row; you can be UT2 at 1:34 r40 for the first minute of a 1'/1' session. That's because what makes it UT2 is whether your HR suggests your body is working at the requisite intensity.

The C2 Programme prescribes workout durations and recommends stroke ratings and target paces that generally get most people working in the appropriate training band(s). If you try to take its prescriptions out of context, you lose whatever meaning the training-band terminology carries.