Ranger's training thread

[hjs]

Just in a routine way in routine workouts (3 x 5K, etc.) pull a 60s heavyweight WR at 26 spm and a UT1 heart rate, over and over, over and over, then in an all out 5K trial at 30 spm and an AT heart rate, I should be five seconds per 500m faster.

1:38?

16:20?

ranger

18.00 sounds about righ...........

[redzone]

Just in a routine way, fly over the rainbow on my magic donkey and play with the clouds. Oh how I love my magic donkey!

ranger

Look, look, there he goes.

[jliddil]

Just in a routine way, fly over the rainbow on my magic donkey and play with the clouds. Oh how I love my magic donkey!

ranger

Look, look, there he goes.

Probably blowing the donkey as well

[NavigationHazard]

Improvements in technique are also entirely independent of physical decline with age.

No they're not. Rowing technique perforce involves the repetitive alignment, contraction, and synchronization of skeletal muscles (and the other body parts/systems that support them). This inherent physicality means it is affected by age-related decline just like any other biomechanical aspect of exercise. To take one obvious example: joints tend to stiffen with age. You're no more likely to get 100-year-old John Hodgson (no knock against a legend and inspiration) to full vertical-shin compression on an erg and full layback than you are to see a limbo competition for centenarians. Technical adaptations may compensate partially for age-related body changes. But they are NOT "entirely independent of physical decline with age."

Moreover, improvements in technique come with a diminishing rate of return: comparatively large effects early; much smaller reflections in performance later. At some point there will be a practical limit to what can be gained from further tinkering. You seem to think that technical improvements, hence performance gains can be continued infinitely. Sorry, that's not the way the real world works.

Finally, there's the rather large problem of the way you're actually rowing as opposed to the way you think you're rowing. Your butt is nowhere near as far forward at the catch as you dream; every video you've ever posted has shown you breaking your arms early while rowing over a barrel and then sitting at the finish before rushing the recovery; your left hand still wants to bend like a praying mantis at the catch; yadda yadda yadda.

[ranger]

Finally, there's the rather large problem of the way you're actually rowing as opposed to the way you think you're rowing. Your butt is nowhere near as far forward at the catch as you dream; every video you've ever posted has shown you breaking your arms early while rowing over a barrel and then sitting at the finish before rushing the recovery; your left hand still wants to bend like a praying mantis at the catch; yadda yadda yadda.

No, all of this is corrected now.

I am at full slide with relaxed shoulders, arms, and hands at the catch and during the leg drive and the swing of my back.

I am now out of the bow at the finish like a flash.

The preying mantis thing is also gone.

ranger

[ranger]

No they're not. Rowing technique perforce involves the repetitive alignment, contraction, and synchronization of skeletal muscles (and the other body parts/systems that support them). This inherent physicality means it is affected by age-related decline just like any other biomechanical aspect of exercise. To take one obvious example: joints tend to stiffen with age. You're no more likely to get 100-year-old John Hodgson (no knock against a legend and inspiration) to full vertical-shin compression on an erg and full layback than you are to see a limbo competition for centenarians. Technical adaptations may compensate partially for age-related body changes. But they are NOT "entirely independent of physical decline with age."

Sure, skeletal-muscular things _can_ decline with age, but they don't need to.

If you use it, you don't lose it.

I can still put my palms on the floor, legs straight, very easily.

No problem with flexibility at all.

And I don't think I have lost _any_ of my full body strength.

I am just as strong as I was when I was 20.

I now pull 13 SPI, just naturally, at 118 df.

That's perfect rowing for a lightweight of any age.

ranger

[macroth]

Finally, there's the rather large problem of the way you're actually rowing as opposed to the way you think you're rowing. Your butt is nowhere near as far forward at the catch as you dream; every video you've ever posted has shown you breaking your arms early while rowing over a barrel and then sitting at the finish before rushing the recovery; your left hand still wants to bend like a praying mantis at the catch; yadda yadda yadda.

No, all of this is corrected now.

I am at full slide with relaxed shoulders, arms, and hands at the catch and during the leg drive and the swing of my back.

I am now out of the bow at the finish like a flash.

The preying mantis thing is also gone.

ranger

Right, I remember this. This summer you fixed everything in one shot, over the course of a few days after NavHaz had pointed out those long-lasting flaws in your latest video. 7 years of "learning to row" and all you needed was one post from NavHaz and a few days of practice to solve all your issues at once.

[ranger]

If you pull 13 SPI, at 26 spm, you are going 1:41.

For me, that's pretty much WR 2K pace.

That's faster than 2K race pace for any other 55s lwt presently rowing.

I row 26 spm with a top-end UT1 heart rate.

ranger

[macroth]

I row 26 spm with a top-end UT1 heart rate.

ranger

At what pace and for how many continuous meters? 200? 300?

[ranger]

My training routine for the rest of the year is shaping up nicely.

I now do 90min on the bike on a regular basis, between rowing OTErg and rowing OTW.

I can now do 16K OTW, which is something like 90min, too.

I am also lengthening my erg workouts up to 90min.

This triple-session workout--90min OTErg, 90min OTBike, 90min OTW--takes 4.5 hours to do and therefore is hard to do on the days that I teach (T Th), but I can do it the other five days of the week (MWFSatSun), or perhaps four of these days (MWFSun), reserving Sat for racing (TR). Besides the racing (TR) on Saturday, this work is all UT, UT2 as I am warming up and UT1 after I get warmed up.

Then, to save time, I can omit the cross-training and rowing OTW on TTh do faster intervals OTErg--short intervals (AN) on Tuesday and long intervals (AT) on Thursday.

This regimen looks a lot like the Wolverine Plan with some cross-training and OTW rowing thrown in for good measure.

It includes all of the training bands, is maximal in terms of both quantity and variety, and includes the cross-training that I usually need to do to make weight, without having to do anything else to shed weight and without altering my diet.

ranger

[ranger]

I row 26 spm with a top-end UT1 heart rate.

ranger

At what pace and for how many continuous meters? 200? 300?

If it's top-end UT1, steady state, I should be able to train myself to do it for 20K, both OTErg and OTW.

We'll soon see if that's right.

I can row 20K with my HR at top-end UT1.

26 spm is a very comfortable cadence.

2-to-1 ratio.

.75 sec for the drive.

1.5 sec for the recovery.

I would suppose that lots of folks can rate 26 spm for 20K.

That's pretty standard.

ranger

[macroth]

I row 26 spm with a top-end UT1 heart rate.

ranger

At what pace and for how many continuous meters? 200? 300?

If it's top-end UT1, steady state, I should be able to train myself to do it for 20K, both OTErg and OTW.

We'll soon see if that's right.

I can row 20K with my HR at top-end UT1.

26 spm is a very comfortable cadence.

2-to-1 ratio.

.75 sec for the drive.

1.5 sec for the recovery.

ranger

That's not an answer. You say "I row", I say "how much", you say "I should be able to train myself to". Why use the present tense for things you aren't actually doing presently and only hope, maybeifwhen, to achieve?

[mikvan52]

Mike--

That's a pretty old screen shot--three years old.

(snip)

I am rowing with a stroke that is right around 33% stronger: 12.5 SPI.

ranger

So you are rowing 33% stronger for 5k? Congratulations!

And> SInce this a "dreamer's free-for-all" thread.. I am allowed to wax poetical about 2007 because you go on and on about 2003!

Of course I'm slower than 2007! Of course "ONW" is faster! Makes perfect sense!! Your are 59 and I am 58... we are oh-so different!!!

-so it goes, Old NetherWind!
(In the spirit of this thread's fantasy aspect, I now hereby christen ranger "ONW")

regards,
"StoneBoat" aka mikvan52
"SB"

oh. btw. what was ONW's 5k time in 2007?

oh. yes. "for the coaches". IOW: He didn't have one!

ha. ha. ha.
(an ONW super-funny one-liner!)==> "for the coaches"
"It's a joke son!"
http://www.sundancereflections.com/imag ... orncel.jpg

[ranger]

That's not an answer. You say "I row", I say "how much", you say "I should be able to train myself to". Why use the present tense for things you aren't actually doing presently and only hope, maybeifwhen, to achieve?

Because that's how training goes--at every stage.

It is future-oriented.

When you start working at some level, it is difficult to do.

Then as you keep doing it, day in and day out, it gets easier, and you improve.

Soon, you are hitting your targets.

Then you go on to the next level.

When you first do rowing at that next level, it is difficult to do.

Then as you keep doing it, day in and day out, it gets easier, and you improve.

Soon, you are hitting your targets.

Then you go on to the next level.

When you first do rowing at that next level, it is difficult to do.

Then as you keep doing it, day in and day out, it gets easier, and you improve.

Soon, you are hitting your targets.

Then you go on to the next level.

When you first do rowing at that next level, it is difficult to do.

Then as you keep doing it, day in and day out, it gets easier, and you improve.

Soon, you are hitting your targets.

Then you go on to the next level.

When you first do rowing at that next level, it is difficult to do.

Then as you keep doing it, day in and day out, it gets easier, and you improve.

Soon, you are hitting your targets.

Then you go on to the next level.

When you first do rowing at that next level, it is difficult to do.

Then...



ranger

[ranger]

So you are rowing 33% stronger for 5k?

I am not to 5K trials yet in my training.

We'll have to see how things turn out.

But if I get to 1:38 for 5K, and you will be pulling 1:49.5 when you are 60, that's _more_ than 33% better, because in addition to having a stroke that is 33% stronger, I will rate 30 spm rather than 28 spm.

The difference in pace/wattage is 39%.

372 watts vs. 267 watts.

11.5 seconds per 500m.

ranger